Hi

This past Sabbath, me and some friends (also keepers of the faith) had prepared very well by watching Walter Veith's DVD on the Sanctuary subject.

However, after I started introducing the subject in quite some detail, I was interrupted when I mentioned the "investigative judgement", as I am not the SS teacher (new in this church), the actual teacher veered waaaay out of the subject and we were all quite frustrated becuase we were never able to get back on track.

Fortunatelly the lady who interrupted me, decided to sms me yesterday continuing the subject and asking further questions.

Straight away I decided to give her my e-mail address as this is a long story and not one that can be feasibly discussed via sms.

With the above in mind I am attaching the e-mail I sent her and asking viwers as well as the moderator/s to get involved and correct where I might have gone wrong by editing the pieces of the e-mail I am going to attach: I will try to differentiate by highlighting my answers in red.

Hi Fausto

I understand there is a lot of analogy (or type and anti-type) between the earthly sanctuary and the heavenly one. The candles, bread, altar, sacrifices etc all pointed to Christ in various ways. We do not need to explore this bit.

However, a pattern or shadow can only be a small reflection of the greater glory, and will not be an exact representation. Therefore what we find happening in the heavenly sanctuary can never be taken to be a replica of heaven.
A shadow will only show outlines, and even a 3D pattern will not be able to capture the full depth of meaning of something that also has a spiritual meaning (since God is spirit)

I have an particular issue with the statement: "In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered
the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus." (Part of Fundamental Belief #24).

The revelation of the New Testament gives us the explanations and descriptions of Jesus fulfilling the "things" of the Mosaic Covenant. No where in the NT that I am aware of does it even imply Jesus is involved in a two phase ministry, in fact the bible states many times that "now" he was seated at the right hand of God (and remember that the now used in the bible was long before 1844). Can dig them out if you need them.

Remember, there was no longer a 'Holy' and 'Most Holy' once Jesus died on the cross - cause the veil ripped in two, making it only one compartment ...

Fair enough, but that applied only to the earthly sacrificial system, the heavenly version of the sanctuary still has to fulfil its purpose which is to apply to the rest of humanity from that time on. The date 1844 however arrives from the fact that if you deduct 2300 days (prophecy of Daniel 8:13 and 14) from 1844 which gives you 456 B.C (date of the decree of Artaxerxes to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem)

Daniel 8:13 - Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14: And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The above verse caused the "great disappointment" in 1844 where people such as William Miller (a Southern Baptist) preached that Christ was to arrive then based on this scripture, when He did not arrive, a great disappointment arose, which led to many going in different directions (and beliefs). It was at this time that Ellen G. White and others went to study this matter further and arrived at the conclusion that it had to mean that Christ was still to perform the so called Investigative Judgement.

This simply means that from that date on (1844) Christ would enter the Most holy place to review the books (book of life and the book of rememberance), as this symbolises the "cleansing" which was done once yearly by using blood from the Lord's Goat. "Azazel" or scape goat (symbolising Satan) is not killed but all the sins for the year are placed upon his head and then it is realeased into the wilderness.

Lev 16: 8: And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9: And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

10: But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

This is symbolic of what will happen to Satan during the millenium in the abyss (wilderness - earth laid desolate) so that he can "ponder" on his previous destructive work. He's bound by circunstances (symbolised by a chain).
At the end of this period, the work of Christ will be complete and the "probation" period will end. - as it points out in Rev 22: 10 - 12 after this

10: And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11: He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Also Rev 15:5 states: And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. /19 : And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

(the temple referred to above is the celestial one)

The other part that disturbs me is the statement that Satan bears our sins. Again the bible does not tells us this anywhere.

See : This simply means that from that date on (1844) Christ would enter the Most holy place to review the books (book of life and the book of rememberance), as this symbolises the "cleansing" which was done once yearly by using blood from the Lord's Goat. "Azazel" or scape goat (symbolising Satan) is not killed but all the sins for the year are placed upon his head and then it is realeased into the wilderness.

Lev 16: 8: And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9: And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

10: But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Satan bears the sins of the unforgiven at the time of his "imprisonment" when he is cast into the abyss, as the sins of the forgiven have been "absorbed" by Christ, you are correct on having that doubt.

However it does make more sense to view this second goat as an earthly attempt to point towards the living mediator we have in the resurrected Christ. Unfortunately in our everyday world, his death and resurrection could not be represented by a single goat.

His death and resurrection is symbolised by a lamb, not a goat! The goat is only used once a year, when the sins of the nation are to be forgiven (this is symbolism), there are two goats one for the Lord (it is killed so that the priest can enter the Most Holy Place and cleanse it with this blood) and one which is not killed where the sins of the people are place upon his head and he is then released into the wilderness.

If you are able to point out, from the bible, where I am wrong then please do so, however people often use the words of Ellen White to support these ideas, but I hold what the bible teaches above the words of any other person. Mrs White herself said her words must be tested against the bible, and if she if wrong then reject her words.

Cool, I have tried and the verses are above, only this last sentence I just expain.

Hey guys

Is it too long? Did I answer properly? Nobody prepared to help out?

Hi, Fausto

That you are a newbie may be a reason another, or more, of the list [may] hesitate to engage your thoughts as forwarded in the above. I mean,

even I, ever adversarial, am reluctant to discuss your post - as you may be a new Xtian. Under these circumstances, I wait until you've posted sufficiently that I might first take your measure.

You'll probably find that, given a few days, if that, you'll have those who'll wish to respond.

Aside: is Fausto your name? or is there a play on Goethe's Faust? or is your intent to play upon the Latin 'lucky'?

(note: you'll also find that there is more traffic on the Townhall board)

Jasd

I thank you for the answer although I really am seeking support to respond in a helpful manner to someone whom is seeking, me being an adventist of about 10 or so years, I still need the confirmation at times that i am correct as I do not want to adversly steer someone, ifyou know what i mean.

As you can probably see, I use a bit of common sense as I sometimes struggle to express my doctrinal beliefs in scripture, I mean "straight off the bat" that is! So I relly on either books or lectures to get scriptural evidence top substantiate my claims.

All in all I am trying to help someone who is attending Sabbath School regularly but is not an adventist and obviously struggles with some concepts, specially critical doctrine like teh sabctuary and investigative judgement and whilt I did not at all quote Mrs. White, this lady refers to her herself as stating one cannot or should not just use her statements as she herself has said her words should be "measured" against the bible (good on her that means she has read the great controversy...but how did she miss the issues at hand?).

What exactly do you mean by new Xtian? In short if it is adventist history I was the Portuguese translator of the Pentecost 2000 adventist satelite african transmission and become a fully fledged adventist then, having been attending the church about 2 years prior to that event.

Yes, Fausto is my real name. There is indeed a play by Goethe, but I would rather not be that Faust as I never did nor ever will sell my soul to the devil in exchange for power and knowledge. Neither do I intend to play upon the latin Lucky or luxurious in any way as that is what it means.

I assume the above writer means that what we find happening in the earthly sanctuary can never be taken to be an exact replica of the heavenly sanctuary. Is that fair to say? Of course it is true that the early copy of the heavenly does not show us everything, but it does show us what God wants us to know.



This is quite true. I think everyone is agreed on this point.



It might well be argued that if the heavenly sanctuary does not consist of two compartments, then Moses failed follow the directions of God to "make all things according to the pattern shown" him.

What is the Bible evidence for a two-apartment sanctuary in heaven?

I find the Bible evidence for it compelling. Consider:

1) The book of Revelation portrays Christ, dressed as High Priest, as being in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks (Rev. 1:13). The candlesticks were a part of the first apartment, not the second.

Interestingly, the first glimpse into the second apartment does not occur until Rev. 11: 18, 19. And the context is "the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou [God} shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldst destroy them which destroy the earth." That is obviously the time just before the Second Coming of Christ.

Notice that this is when John first catches a glimpse of the second apartment where the ark of the covenant sits. (See Hebrews 9: 3,4.) In Rev. 11: 19, John's and our attention is drawn to it for the first time. Until then John's attention had been focussed on the first apartment where Christ ministered up until the judgement referred to in Rev. 11: 18, 19. This judgment was still future at the time of Paul (Acts 24: 25).

2) Another piece of evidence that the heavenly sanctuary has two apartments, or sections, which are symbolic of the different phases of God's work, is shown in the fact that God's throne in both Daniel and Revelation is represented as having wheels. There is only one reason for anything to have wheels, and that is, of course, if the thing MOVES from one location to another.

3) With that in mind, look carefully at Daniel 7: 9-14, 21-27. Judgment occurs only after the throne of God moves, and the Son of God "came to the Ancient of Days." If we put Rev. 11: 19 and Daniel 7 together, it becomes apparent, therefore, that in both chapters the judgment is taking place, and the judgment occurs only after God's throne is moved from the first apartment, where the golden candle-stick is, to the second apartment, in which is the ark of God's covenant.

Why is this important? Because Christ mediates his blood before the Father for sinners from the time of his ascension until the end of human probation, which occurs shortly before the Second Coming. (It should be pointed out that Christ could not be our High Priest and mediate his blood before the Father until He had first lived a perfect life and shed His blood on calvary.) This mediation, which has been taking place since Christ's ascension, is represented by the work of the earthly High Priest in the first apartment throughout the year, as he takes the blood of the sacrificial animals into the Holy Place, and as the incense goes up from the altar of incense.

The Day of Atonement represented the events connected with the judgment scene as we have them in Daniel 7 and 8; Rev. 11: 18, 19 and 14: 7. It describes the process by which all those who have made a sincere and honest profession of trust in Christ are found to be ready for either the Second Coming or the resurrection. This is referred to by Seventh-day Adventists as the Investigative, or Pre-Advent, Judgment. It is necessary in order to resolve the problem of sin prior to Christ's return. When it is finished, everyone will have decided either for God or against Him. It brings to an end all of those issues regarding sin and righteousness that must be finished before Christ can return in glory for His Bride.

Jesus declared, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev. 22: 12.

Jesus' bride has at last made herself ready and is so settled into the Truth that she can't be moved. Rev. 19:7.

Study well GC 482-486.

Notice that the "scapegoat" is not slain. It is not a sacrifice; does not shed its blood. It does not bear the sins of the righteousness. Only Christ bears our sins and is our Savior. The ceremony in which the goat was led off into the desert only points to fact that it will be shown at last that Satan-- not God-- is responsible for sin.

John

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for the answer given, even though I am pretty solid in terms of my beliefs in this matter, I fail to discribe biblical refrences to my satisfaction...man, sometimes I think I should do bible school just to get things right!

But yeah, let me say your answer is superb, I just hope she will see it and understand it!

Thank you, Fausto!

Of course, as you must know, it often takes a long time for people to see these truths. God bless in your efforts to share these things with others. Like Tyndale prayed, "Lord, open the king's eyes."

John

Its true, we have so much work to do! And as Ps. Robert Cox puts it, the more you fill up with God's truth the more it overflows, teh more you want to shout it from the roof tops!

John or anyone else forthat matter...I'm not getting through, unfortunatelly the saga continues:

John 317 wrote ....
It might well be argued that if the heavenly sanctuary does not consist of two compartments, then Moses failed follow the directions of God to "make all things according to the pattern shown" him.

Fausto, this is a 'straw man' - there is absloutely no argument that Moses did make the earthly sanctuary with two apartments as God commanded.

Why did the sanctuary Moses build have two apartments - it was because people at that time had not been shown Gods way into the Most Holy Place (Heb 7& 8), but this changed with the cruicifixion.

The question should be - how many apartments are there after Christ died on the cross?

My belief is ONE - and is this why ...
We are told the veil was torn in two at the time of his death (so now there is no longer the division into two apartments)

In Revelations, I do not know of any reference where John talked about the VEIL? If there is no veil, then there is only one apartment and all the items of both the first and second apartments will be visible, so seeing Christ by the candlestick etc does not 'prove' there is still two apartments.

John317 also referred to the wheels on Gods throne - I could not find any reference to this in Revelation, but definitely in Daniel 7:9. Ezekiel 1 & 10 talks about wheels under the creatures/cherubim, but that isn't related (okay I'm getting carried away in my searching now)

anyway, yes we have a flaming throne with wheels in Daniel. But where does it say Gods throne was ever in the first apartment -?if this is correct please give me scipture to demonstrate Gods throne was in the first apartment before the dividng veil was torn. If the bible does not say this, then why should I believe it was ever was in the first apartment, as God's presence is in the Most Holy Place - appearing in the cloud over the atonement cover (Lev 16:2)