The accuracy of prophecy is important because it gives evidence that God is trustworthy and is in ultimate control of history. See Isaiah 41, 43, 44, where He says that His ability to foretell the future accurately is one of the proofs that He is God. So God says that prophecy is something we should examine carefully to see if He is who He says He is. If the prophecies fail, according to the Bible's own testimony, then the prophecies cannot be used as evidence that He is God. Such prophecies are objective evidence of God's existence and power.

On the other hand, if God is right about the prophecies we're discussing, then it shows that we can be absolutely confident and certain of the other events in the time prophecies, such as the Pre-Advent Judgment.

Let's suppose that upon close examination, the prophecies were proved to be non-existent. What effect would such proof have? Would we be able to say honestly that it doesn't matter and that we simply have faith in God, even though the evidence he asked us to look at proves that He doesn't know the future after all? If the events in the time prophecies did not occur, or if no one can be sure whether or not they occurred, how certain could we be of the Pre-Advent Judgment or of the Second Coming?

The prophecies, then, are indeed important and can't be swept aside as if nothing depends on them. They are evidence that our trust in God is not misplaced. The Messianic prophecies are the same: they prove that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. We cannot say that the prophecies about Him are unimportant. He Himself pointed to them as proof of who He was.

I find it a remarkable fulfillment of prophecy that the Pope was taken captive by Napoleon exactly 1,260 years following the defeat and virtual elimination of the Ostrogoths, which led to the rise in power of the papacy.

What matters in terms of the 1260 day/year prophecy is the event which led to the Pope's being able to be the head of the churches without serious opposition from the Arian nations. That event occurred in AD 538, when the Ostrogoths were reduced from a force of 150,000 men under arms to one of 10,000 and compelled to lift their siege against Rome.

We might have some disagreement over the exact process of the elimination of the Ostrogoths, but what we can be certain of is that 538 AD was a pivotal year for the rise of the papacy. This fact itself unquestionably dovetails quite well with the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.

One of the stated reasons in the Word revealing the need for prophecy, I believe is best described in the AMP bible.

"And now I have told you [this] before it occurs, so that when it does take place you may believe and have faith in and rely on Me." John 14:29 AMP

"And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe." John 14:29 KJV

When dealing with the prophecies we have at least a twofold purpose. If dealing with an unbeliever, maybe ourself, the ability to logically reveal that Jesus is truly Lord and Saviour.
Third, to allow we who already have had our faith established in Jesus, to prepare for events that could be important to our safety during trying times before us.

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." 2 Timothy 3:12 KJV
Regards!

Could that mean that we were wrong... and not God who is wrong? I'm not saying that we are... but what if Pope is not the antichrist of the revelation? Have you considered this possibility, and the consequences of your locking into and believing that no matter what other say... he is because it's "prophetic".... and what if the Sunday observance will not be the mark of the beast? Don't you see the danger in locking on a echatological view dismissing any other possibilities? What are your thoughts on that?

Do you mean what if everything we believe is wrong, including the Sabbath, the nature of man in death, the Second Coming, the gift of prophecy, the sanctuary? What if the Bible is nothing but a bundle of contradictions and can't be understood?

My best friend of 37 years is an atheist and asks me questions such as how does anyone know what is truth. In fact, he doesn't think we can really know anything for sure. The other day he asked me if God likes having sex. My friend sees nothing wrong with people having sex with anything they want to. He has scarcely read a page of the Bible. He doesn't have the Holy Spirit guiding him and he has no respect for God. I expect such questions from him.

Of course I have considered that possibility. Each person has to study these things out and find out for himself what he believes about them. If you have studied them seriously and looked at the questions and the Bible teachings on these topics, there can only be one answer to the identity of the antichrist and little horn power. The same with the Sabbath and the Mark of beast. All I can say to you is that if you are not certain of these things, you really need to go back and study them until you are certain one way or the other. No one can do that for anyone else.

Do you think it would be wrong to keep the open mind about things and let the history reveal itself? I am certain that people who love God would do what He says. I have no question in my mind about Sabbath being the commandment that we should keep. Do you think God will judge people based on their understanding of eschatology... or their love and care for each other and for God? What is more important? How can you ever be certain about things on the outside of the door that you can not possibly open up? Can we ever be? Not to say that faith is based on uncertainty, but my point is... the people in 1884 got their second chance for being wrong. If you get the mark of the beast wrong... you won't have any second chances... you will be waiting for the Sunday laws and these may never come... Have you considered what you'd do then? Would your faith be somehow nullified then?

What do you see as the dangers?

Have you ever given people Bible studies on the truth about the Sabbath, the mark of the Beast, and end-time events?

Did you believe what you were saying? Were you convinced that it is the truth?

I have given sever once and I was convinced that it is the truth, yet there is always the question about the eschatology part being missed... just like the people in 1848 totally missed it. That's why I don't bank my faith on it. God has promised to put his seal on those who love Him, and of that I'm convinced that I love God. You see, I see that many people base their faith on this issue. But what would you do if Papacy would fall apart a couple years from now? Now saying that this is going to happen... just wondering would that undermine your faith in any way?

Do you mean that we should tell people we are really not sure of the identity of the antiChrist and of Babylon? You say let history reveal itself. But history up to this point has already revealed who the antiChrist and Babylon are. There is no question that we will learn more details and see things fulfilled that will surprise us, but the identity of the antiChrist and little-horn power and Babylon is not something we need to be ignorant of. If we are, it is our own fault.



Yes, if they truly love God. But the Bible says there are many liars who claim to love God but who do not really love Him. The Investigative Judgment separates those who really love God from those who have only made empty claims. That is also one reason that God allows the church to go through the persecution during the time of trouble just before Jesus returns.



Good. Me neither. May I ask how you came to such certainty and conviction?



Yes, when the issues are made clear for them; they have studied the Bible for themselves and they are under conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Give me an example of what you mean by "their understanding of eschatology".

Fundamentally we are all going to be judged not only on what we know of the Bible's teachings but on what we could have known if we had wanted to know the truth. Some people do not want to know the truth because they believe that if they knew it, then they would be responsible for it. They do not realize that we are responsible for what we refuse to learn and know. Many of the Jews of Jesus' time could have known about the coming of the Messiah but they refused to study and learn. They did not want to know. They will be held responsible for their rejection of truth. They refused to study and know the prophecies. Some did not. Some, such as Andrew, knew the Messianic prophecies and therefore, by the Holy Spirit, recognized the Messiah. Everyone might have done as Andrew did, but only a few were ready.



Could you be specific?



Do you mean 1844? Or 1888? I assume you mean the latter. Not sure what you mean, though, by getting a second chance for being wrong. Please explain. Certainly they were able to repent of their wrong, if that is what you mean.



I think you have the wrong idea. We shouldn't be waiting for anything but be always ready. It doesn't matter if Sunday laws come or not. I may not even live to that time anyway. I am not "waiting" for Sunday laws.

Maybe you could explain further what you see as the danger in believing that the Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and Sabbath the seal of God. (Actually the mark of the beast is more complex than that.)



My faith is something I practice every day and is not waiting for the Sunday laws or for anything else.

Actually these are all very good questions that people need to ask themselves and resolve in their own hearts and minds. But I am not sure that this is the best thread to do this on. It would be best if separate threads were made for each of the individual questions, regarding the Sabbath, the end-time events, etc. There have been many discussions already on ClubAdventist about these same topics.

I have no idea of the amount of time and effort you've put into Bible study, and particularly into studying the prophecies. So I don't know what you know.

You say "1848" but I am going to assume that you mean 1844.

Have you studied in depth what happened in 1843 and 1844? I presume you've read and reread several times the chapters in the Great Controversy on that topic. Do you believe what that book says? Do you have doubts about what it says happened in 1844?

Yes, God will place his seal on those who love, trust, and obey Him. Nowhere does the Bible say God will place his seal on those who merely say they love him. If we love Him, what does the Bible say we will do?

Even if the Papacy were to "fall apart," as you put it, that would not mean that the papal system was not the little horn power and the antichrist. The king of the north and the king of the south did not have the same identity all of the time. What is important are the characteristics of those powers. When you apply this to the papacy, it means that the "man of sin" is the power that attempted to change God's law and take its seat in the temple (church) of God. It is Satan working within the church to change God's law and to throw truth to the ground, especially the truth regarding Christ's mediation in the heavenly sanctuary. It was the papal system that did these things and continues to do them today, but if the papal system were to fall apart, you would still have the Roman Catholic system which is fundamentally the same.

However, I have no doubt from my study of the prophecies that the papal system is not going to fall apart. It has not only existed for almost 2,000 but it has done exactly what the prophecies say it would.

Remember that Martin Luther and other Bible students identified it as the antichrist power long before he saw many of the prophecies about it fulfilled. Since then, we have seen more prophecies fulfilled, and therefore we should have no question who this power is. God has made these things plain to us so that we will avoid associating with the antichrist power and his false day of worship, as well as many other false teachings connected to this same power.