What needs to be done to support your view is to show strong evidence that the events you allude to as "end time events" are indeed end time events. What events have not yet been fulfilled that have been described as having happened?

You deny that these things have been fulfilled but you do not show a reason why this is the case.

Yes, please explain your viewpoint.

Show from the Bible that "sealing" the book of Daniel meant that no one would understand it until "this past century."

Also, reason and evidence would need to be shown why Daniel's sealing 2, 600 years ago necessarily means everything that has been thought about it before 19-- ? must be wrong and rejected.

>>By any chance, would you be suggesting that the charts and everything else we have said up to this point about Daniel 2, 7, and 8 is invalid because it was all done in opposition to your understanding of Daniel 12: 4?<<

Is there more needed saying? It is Gd speaking..., not jasd - and if Daniel cannot be understood as written - well, the BRIs of the several .orgs prove insufficient. And yes,

I suggest as much.

>>In other words, is it your contention that your view of Daniel 12: 7 is enough to disprove those things?<< [Dan 12:4 - ed.jasd]

I’ve noticed that the .Org has no trouble identifying proscriptive language per Exodus 20 – why does it and its adherents have such difficulty apprehending the proscriptive language in Daniel 12? Curiouser and curiouser...

>>If it is, then it would be necessary to show that your view of Daniel 12:4 is correct, and I don't see evidence of that, either historically, grammatically, and theologically.<<

No, it is not necessary that I hold anyone’s hands while they muse upon such as “...shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

There could hardly be a more plainly spoken “Thus saith the word of Gd.” It is easily understood and noted that it is – Gd-speak.

Per the ...llys above – I notice.

>>Do you know of any commentator who has argued this point before and has written a defense of it? I would like to read it if anyone has.<<

Of course, it is Gd. “...shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

Yes, a straightforward read of the word of Gd, the commentator.

>>Are you yourself a strict Sabbath keeper?<<

Are there any? Anyway, it is not I, jasd, Pioneer, extraordinaire and remnantized – who asks.

John, let me look it up as this particular prophecy is rather confusing to me, maybe this way I'll get to understand it!

I'd say it is a point of contention to me as I don't understand it really, here is a link that also leads to an inconclusive conclusion (oxymoron?) if there is a such a word.

Daniel 12

>>What needs to be done to support your view is to show strong evidence that the events you allude to as "end time events" are indeed end time events.<<

I am not necessarily needful to support my view. I am not a proselytizer. Trusting that Gd was more serious than rhetorical re Isaiah’s “Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; ...” I am, at this point, more clinically interested in Writ - than in establishing another incorporated or associative body of like-minded.

Per my “alluding to” – I believe that should you reread my proffers – you’ll find that my reference to Daniel 12:4 is self-explanatory. How did your pioneers get to the Sabbath meetings? I hardly think they, along with ‘many’, were running to and fro during the 19th century – except, perhaps, by the proverbial mare’s shank or poor Dobbin – some few by other pedestrian means.

>>What events have not yet been fulfilled that have been described as having happened?<<

Almost the entire prophecies in the Book of Daniel?

>>You deny that these things have been fulfilled but you do not show a reason why this is the case.<<

My ability to deduce is not the greatest but – I can understand an imperative proscription from Gd – and I do think that I can distinguish between certain verb tenses. That alone suffices.

Most students of Daniel do not understand those words to signify what you make them out to mean.

Indeed they are straightforward and plain, but they do not mean that no one will understand them until "the last century."

Many of Daniel's prophecies were sealed because they would not be fulfilled for a very long time. By contrast, John was told not to seal up the book of Revelation, because as it states, the "time is near." Parts of Revelation had to do with things that would happen shortly after the time of John.

That is why the book of Daniel was sealed, and not because God would not allow anyone to understand it. It was because the events described or spoken of in many of the prophecies would not make sense to people during the time of Daniel.

The time of the end that is referred to in Daniel 12: 4 began at the end of the 1, 260 day prophetic period, which occurred in 1798. As I've mentioned before, it was about then that there was a great increase in the study of the prophecies of Daniel.

Virtually all commentators are agreed that the words, "running to and fro," have to do with studying the prophecies, turning every page, searching, etc. That is undoubtedly the primary meaning of the text. It's true that at the end times, there is also an dramatic increase in knowledge and human travel. But even if that were the primary meaning of Daniel 12: 4, it wouldn't support the notion that God wouldn't allow anyone to study and understand some parts of the book. That is simply not what the "sealing" of the book meant.

Again, the sealing meant that many of the prophecies in the book would not reach fulfillment until near the time of the end. There were other parts of the book that did come to pass, such as Daniel 1-5. These prophecies, such as in Daniel 5, were obviously intended to be understood in the time of Daniel. Other parts were to be understood in the first century (see reference in Matt. 24: 15; Mark 13: 14). Mark refers to the flight of the Christians to the hills of Judea in order to escape the Roman legions, and therefore it is obvious that Jesus intended for the first century Jewish Christians to study and understand that aspect of Daniel.

>>Show from the Bible that "sealing" the book of Daniel meant that no one would understand it until "this past century."<<

Good grief, John317, how could Gd have been more explicit?

>>Also, reason and evidence would need to be shown why Daniel's sealing 2, 600 years ago necessarily means everything that has been thought about it before 19-- ? must be wrong and rejected.<<

More and more, I begin to think that you read my responses slightly. Your semantics aside, I have repeatedly stated as much as to demonstrate that your assessment in the above is wrong.

Actually I think that's a very good link. Thank you.

>>Most students of Daniel do not understand those words to signify what you make them out to mean.<<

Of course not; it is they, for the most part, who wrest Scripture – per the Book of Daniel. The blind, leading the blind, all fall into the ditch.

>>Indeed they are straightforward and plain, but they do not mean that no one will understand them until "the last century."<<

Erratum: “this past century”

>>Many of Daniel's prophecies were sealed because they would not be fulfilled for a very long time. By contrast, John was told not to seal up the book of Revelation, because as it states, the "time is near." Parts of Revelation had to do with things that would happen shortly after the time of John.<<

Well and good. The thrust of the passage you may be referencing desires that we should receive a blessing: I received my blessing from Revelation in being apprised that my deceased mother is with the Lord in mind, soul, and spirit – to one day, at the Parousia, receive her glorified body. Blessing indeed.

>>That is why the book of Daniel was sealed, and not because God would not allow anyone to understand it.<<

The words are “shut” and “sealed” – period, full stop; with no indicia to justify a “That is why...”

>>It was because the events described or spoken of in many of the prophecies would not make sense to people during the time of Daniel.<<

That the people during the time of Daniel may not have been ready to ‘receive’ the prophecies may be true.

>>The time of the end that is referred to in Daniel 12: 4 began at the end of the 1, 260 day prophetic period, which occurred in 1798.<<

Indeed!? that was developed during the times when even the ‘prophet’ had to go to her meetings hitched behind poor ol’ Dobbin. That’s hardly a cross-Atlantic flight on the Concorde or otherwise “running to and fro” with others of the “many”.

>>As I've mentioned before, it was about then that there was a great increase in the study of the prophecies of Daniel.<<

You’re positing a ‘running back and forth through a scroll (or equivalent), are you not? That does not compute, as Daniel, who would have been the one to understand – could not: never mind, the piece-mealing of historic events.

>>Virtually all commentators are agreed that the words, "running to and fro," have to do with studying the prophecies, turning every page, searching, etc. That is undoubtedly the primary meaning of the text.<<

I thought you were leading to this sort of an exposition; however, were that the intent of Gd, He confounded Himself as – there is now less Biblical knowledge extant today than ante-; well, except for those few [/sotto voce] who were elected from before the foundation of the world, yes?

>>It's true that at the end times, there is also an dramatic increase in knowledge and human travel. But even if that were the primary meaning of Daniel 12: 4, it wouldn't support the notion that God wouldn't allow anyone to study and understand some parts of the book. That is simply not what the "sealing" of the book meant.<<

We have to adduce that certain parts are understandable. It is too obvious to, otherwise, gainsay. That said, were Gd intending to seal only the incidental – He certainly might have hired a better scribe and translator than Daniel – or, at least, have used language more precisely. [/hyperbole]

>>These prophecies, such as in Daniel 5, were obviously intended to be understood in the time of Daniel.<<

Then, why is it so misunderstood today?

>>Other parts were to be understood in the first century (see reference in Matt. 24: 15; Mark 13: 14). Mark refers to the flight of the Christians to the hills of Judea in order to escape the Roman legions, and therefore it is obvious that Jesus intended for the first century Jewish Christians to study and understand that aspect of Daniel.<<

So, Jesus Christ was referring to the first-century 'Jew' that He might make there ‘House’ less desolate? No, He spoke of a time future still.