"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God." Revelation 2:7 NASB

"'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'" Revelation 2:11 NASB
Regards!

I agree with you on everything except that I think the church will be united just about the time of the close of probation, due to persecution and what is called the shaking.

I'm not sure that I see difference as a huge problem... rather, I see Adventism as one small circle drawn in the huge set of differences that is the Christian church as a whole. All Christians are united in some beliefs, and have differences on others, and Adventists are no different. There's only one simple standard for salvation (and, hint, it's not what Ellen White says it is in that quote) - diversity on other matters shouldn't bother us too much, IMO.

John317, I wonder: will that unity of the church at that time mean uniformity on doctrine? And if so, which of the two main groups will need to move farthest? Will both groups need to move, either toward one another's positions or in some third direction?

I believe the quote, but what needs to be seen-- and which Ellen White also speaks about-- is that she is not talking about absolute perfection. Biblical perfection is spiritual maturity, not absolute sinlessness. It is describing people who are so settled into the truth about God and about Christ that they cannot be moved. They are walking with God each step of the way. It doesn't mean they never make a mistake or never need God's grace and forgiveness and righteousness.

Check out GC 425.

I think one of the important things to take away from your quote is that God's ideal for us is far higher than most of us realize, and that by the Holy Spirit's power there is no doubt that we can reach that ideal if we will put our hand in Christ's and don't take it out. Christ will do it. He's promised.

I'm wondering if you are confusing *beliefs* with *values.* Beliefs have to do more with doctrines, while values have more to do with HOW we do things. (How do we keep the Sabbath, how do we "do" church, how do we reach the community, how much emphasis do we put on certain doctrines, etc.?)

Adventists have a huge variety of values. But I think, for the most part, that Adventist beliefs are the same worldwide. (Although I have to add that I continue to be surprised now and then at how little so many members know about what they "believe." But that's probably another subject.)

If you read the rest of her writings, I think you will find that the "perfection of character" that she is referring to is NOT synonymous with sinless perfection. As long as we are imprisoned in this sinful flesh, sinless perfection is NOT possible. However, I do believe what the Apostle John says:

"No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him -- deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]. 1 Jn 3:6 Amp.

This is the kind of character perfection that I think is possible in this life, by and through the grace of God.

Gerry

I don't see having differences as a problem. BUT, I would like messages that arise from "official channels" to admit to huge differences of belief. I don't see that sort of message coming from "official channels".

It is both . . . there are substantial doctrinal differences between the two churches I spoke of in a previous post. AND there are different ways of doing Sabbath for example. What worries me is that "official channels" make us think there is but one set of doctrines held commonly by all Adventists when this is just not so.

Very good question. It is not necessary to have complete uniformity on doctrine in all of its many details. That would almost be boring. I believe that even in heaven people will have differences of opinion. The change will be that in heaven we will love each other even when we disagree. And we will no longer disagree over whether God exists or whether He is good and loving.

Yet in the church on earth before the Second Coming, there will be agreement on the fundamentals. It is hard to imagine the Third Angels Message being proclaimed to the world under the power of the Latter Rain in a way that is contradictory. For instance, I believe that there will be perfect agreement on the importance of the Sabbath/Sunday issue and on the fact that God wants us to keep the Sabbath. Those who do not believe this will find it easy to drop out of the church when they find that keeping the Sabbath will require a great deal of suffering and trial.

Am I totally wrong here, you think?