You know, Shane, you tell me that I need to get a better view, a more varied view of media sources when it comes to getting my info on what's happening in the world. And I know that you are in AA meetings. Another of my cousins has been going to them for many years as well [we are talking more than one decades here] and he let's me know some of the things that happen there as well. It's his church, he says.

I work in the medical field, and by my experience, EVERYONE is sick. EVERYONE has a headache, or a stomachache or a shoulder ache or dizzyiness that the doctors can't seem to correct. And it's been my experience, and I have to admit that I have even done it, that when I am on the recieving end of something bad, it's not just bad, IT'S REALLY BAD!!!!!! I have heard that when there are aches and pains from others, it is truely the worst pain you can hardly imagine....and, of course, IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

So, Shane, with all due respect, I know that abuse happens. But as for the frequency and the intensity, ...well, that is subjective...and doesn't correlate with the info that I have.

Again, I stand by my words...I demand better of MY American Military.

As for prison reform, that's a whole different subject...

I totally agree that truth can be interpreted differently. But when the Red Cross states that what is going on in Guantanamo is "categorically torture" (not "it might be"), and the CIA report says probably 1/3 of the inmates are innocent and that's why they aren't getting good information out of there - how do you interpret that differently?

There is a teacher there who was turned in by a student that he gave a bad grade to. There are people there who were victims of inter-tribal disputes - turned in by someone just because they belonged to a different tribe that they were angry with. These people were not even in the vicinity of Al-Quaida, yet they got picked up and held for years as the "worst of the worst."

I disagree. This thread is about Gitmo, which is a military prison. The fact that we have abuse in our civilian prisons is relevant to the fact that we have abuse in our military prisons. The reason such a big deal is made regarding Gitmo is because the anti-war crowd is using it to further their cause. We don't hear so much about the abuse in the state pen because it has nothing to do with the war on terror.

This is off topic but...

Too many in AA make a religion out of it. Your cousin isn't alone. However both of the co-founders of AA called it a spiritual kindergarten. When AA members tell me that AA is their church or that they don't need church because they have AA, I always remark to them that they must not aspire to go past kindergarten.

The International Red Cross goes on what prisoners tell them. In the video clip in the other thread we have a kid claiming that he lost his eyes and feet when he obviously has not lost his eyes nor his feet. So what the International Red Cross is reporting isn't necessarily correct.

The CIA report is alleged. We have to take the word of a reporter with an admitted liberal, anti-war bias. I have not seen the report. I don't know anything about it.

I am not so gullible that I am just going to take the word of a Red Cross worker or an anti-war journalist. I am not defending abuse in Gitmo. I am just stating that we don't know how much truth there is in what is being reported.

I totally agree with you about the U.S. prisons. There are those who say they have it too cush, but they aren't taking into account the abuse that goes on. On the other hand, I could be wrong, but I don't think we torture prisoners in the U.S. As far as I know, we are still outsourcing that.

Now, since Congress has acted, our military is not allowed to torture. The CIA is allowed to waterboard. Some feel waterboarding is not torture. I disagree. However when compared to what the Vietnamese did to our soldiers, I agree it pales in comparison.

I do not believe the torture aspect of Gitmo is now what it was since the military is no longer doing it. However there is abuse going on there which is a lot of what the Red Cross is reporting.

Then there's always those black site prisons, where they have no rules.

Of course there are and always will be. When we close Gitmo these prisoners will simply be sent to prisons in other countries that are outside the jurisdiction of the US. I don' know if that is the victory the anti-war liberals wanted but that is what is going to happen.