@Robert
Thank you Rob. That's very insightful. But one thing.


I don't think Jesus at this point was telling people He was the Son of God, nor was that what He was trying to get this man to understand.



(also: Matt. 17:9; Mark 8:30; 9:9; Luke 9:21)

The young ruler was completely unconverted. He was far from such a revelation.

Jesus taught: "...call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven", (Matt. 23:9).

To understand things properly, we need to compare verses. The phrase "one is your Father, which is in heaven" matches well with "[there is] none good but one, [that is], God".

Religious leaders should be given honor and respect, but there's a line that should not be crossed or it will cause them to fall.

If Jesus would have accepted the man's address He would not have taught a good lesson.

Do you understand? No?


@John317
Thanks. Again, that's a good point. And not all where called to give up everything to be a disciple.

In the case of this ruler, his things where causing him to sin.
In the case of Joseph of Arimathaea, he bought Jesus a very expensive tomb and used his influence to get the body from Pilate, (Matt. 27:57-60).
In the case of Zacchaeus, he gave half his goods to the poor and payed 4x to any he defrauded, but didn't liquidate all and go around with Jesus in the capacity of the 12 disciples. And Jesus said: "This day is salvation come to this house,", (Luke 19:9).


@Robert again

I believe man can keep God's law. Temptation can seem very strong sometimes, but the promise remains: "Resist the devil, and he will flee from you", (James 4:7).

Man does need God's help, therefore: "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you", (James 4:8).


@Robert again


This observation doesn't make much of a point. It looks like you disagree with them asking such a question and with Jesus' response:



It's good that they asked that. It gave Jesus an opportunity to tell us what to expect in return for our sacrifice.

The Lord offers all kinds of incentive: "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men", (Matt. 4:19).

It takes faith to want treasure in heaven more than treasure on earth. It's good to claim the promises of God and want what He offers.

It was implied through the forgiveness of sin (only God can forgive sin) and the Jews knew this.



Jesus was trying to prove two things:

1] Mankind is selfish by nature and therefore,

2] He can't keep God's law.

Why? Agape is the ingredient by which the law can be kept. Please remember that agape has no self-love or self-seeking in it. Therefore God's law requires that even your motives and thoughts must be perfect.




It doesn't matter if you believe you can keep God's law. The fact is you need forgiveness daily. Forgiveness is because you fail to keep God's law. Not only this, but you are failing to fully measure up. Since the law will not accept anything short of perfection you don't stand a chance of getting into heaven by your goodness.



1 Cor 13:3 If I give all I possess to the poor ..., but have not love, it means nothing. [Why?]4 Love is...not self-seeking....


The disciples were breaking the 10th commandment as was the RYR. Both were selfish and self-seeking. Proof? Let's return to Matt 19:17

"If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

Please remember the RYR's question: What good things must I do to gain heaven? What did Jesus do? He gave him the law - the measuring stick of righteousness!

18 “Which ones?” the man inquired.

Jesus replied, ”‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Wait, aren't there 6 commandments? I read only 5!

If you notice Jesus replaced the 10th commandment (you shall not covet) with "you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself". So coveting is loving yourself instead of your neighbor.


You must remember that Jesus is talking to sinners when he says, "You (i.e., you sinners) must love your neighbor as you (naturally) love yourself." In other words take that self-love and redirect it towards your neighbor. His welfare is to the your highest ambition instead of what is in it for me.

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

Notice the RYR's bragging: I've done it all...where do I lack?

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect [no coveting], go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

That's perfection! See why Jesus told the RYR that there's none truly good except one? All of us are failing here.

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

You see to the Jew a rich man is a good man blessed of God for his obedience to God's law. So, in his mind, to give up his possessions meant he was no longer in God's favor.

As the young man turned away, Jesus said to His disciples, "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God." These words astonished the disciples. They had been taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven; worldly power and riches they themselves hoped to receive in the Messiah's kingdom; if the rich were to fail of entering the kingdom, what hope could there be for the rest of men?…. [COL 292]

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Christ's point? If you think that your wealth proves your goodness, well, it really proves your selfishness. It takes a lot of self-love to become rich (unless it falls in your lap).

Christ, on the other hand, had no place to lay His head. He never lived for Himself for even 1 ms. That's perfection....

“The law of God condemns all selfishness, all pride of heart, every species of dishonesty, every secret or open transgression.” [ST 3-30-1888]

“There is not a motive in the depths of the heart, not a secret within us, not a design that God does not fully comprehend.” [OHC 139]

“God's law reaches the feelings and motives, as well as the outward acts. It reveals the secrets of the heart, flashing light upon things before buried in darkness. God knows every thought, every purpose, every plan, every motive. The books of heaven record the sins that would have been committed had there been opportunity. God will bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing. “ [5BC 1085]


Rob

We find this concept of "agape" hard to comprehend don't we?

That's why Paul states, "but when perfection comes [when we receive our immortal, sinless bodies], the imperfect disappears. .... 12 Now we see [context: this agape love] as but a poor reflection in a mirror; then we shall see face to face [i.e., we shall see God who is agape]. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully...." [ 1 Cor 13:10-12]

The fact is that God's law requires perfect agape love. But Paul tells me I'll never fully understand it this side of eternity. Therefore perfection is an impossibility. Yes, growth in grace, but perfect law obedience? No way! Hence 1 John 1:8 and Romans 3:23.

Rob

Thanks again Rob. So well said.

It is clear to me that we sin until the day we die. But praise God. We are not going to get what we deserve. Praise God that HE died for my sins. The matter is settled. I AM SAVED. He took care of that.

It is true that we can't keep God's law on our own. That's utterly impossible.

But with God in our life, it is possible to obey God's will. Jesus said, "All things are possible with God." And, "You can do nothing without me."

Keeping the holy law by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit has nothing whatever to do with gaining heaven by works.

There are works of law and there are works of faith. What kind of works did Jesus do? He calls His followers to do the same kinds of works-- works empowered by the Holy Spirit and motivated by faith and love.

Of course it goes without saying that these things can only be done as we remain connected to the vine, Jesus Christ.

It is also equally true that even with the power of God through faith .... that we can't keep the law well enough to earn salvation. That is something that the power of God does not have power enough to do. We are not saved by the law. We are saved by the life of Jesus who kept the law ... and accepting that through faith. The Law no longer has it's curse on us. The curse has been removed by Christ for those who accept Him by Faith.

Isn't that ALL of us. We ALL fail and fall short of the Glory of God. We ALL fail to "leave ALL". The power is there ... YES. But we refuse it. If we accpeted it ... we would be perfect and without sin.

Is all falling short of the glory of God due to refusing the power of the Holy Spirit?

According to the Bible, all members of the human race, sinful as we all are, may still be perfect, or mature. The fact that we are sinful humans, then, is no reason not to be perfect in the Biblical sense. God has the power to make us mature but we have to allow Him to control us instead of the other power.

By "leaving all," Jesus meant to make a complete heart-commitment to Him. It is similar to Deut. 6: 5 that commands us to "love God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." Those two verses are fundamentally saying the same thing.

Mature? Yes.

Perfect, as in living Christ's life in all it's perfection? No.

I might make an exception for the last generation of Christians just before Christ returns. They are so connected, so surrendered, that it's possible for them to fully reflect Christ. Look at the reasons:

1] All earthly support is cutoff.

2] They are completely God dependent.

However, if you could interview them, I don't think the last generation of Christians would feel that they are perfect in their reflection of Christ. Nevertheless, the Bible states that there's no self-love in their works of faith because they love not their lives even unto death. I see 100% agape with no mixture of "self".

Now this doesn't imply perfection. Perfection is more than just performance. To be perfect, as God is perfect, we must have "holy flesh" - i.e., we must shed this old life indwelt with sin and receive our new immortal lives. This happens at translation. Then we will be perfect as God is perfect.

Rob

Agreed. The maturity is really a living up to what we know to be truth at each stage or step of our lives as we walk with Christ. It doesn't mean that we don't make mistakes or fail occasionally or that the Holy Spirit is not convicting us of things we need to change by God's grace. It is like a child who is learning to walk and falls down from time to time, or at first very often. But he won't be doing the same thing at 20 that he did at 5, etc. So we say that the person is mature at each stage of his life. For the Christian, it means complete commitment to Christ all along the way. Of course he becomes more committed as he grows spiritually and experiences Christ in his life.

A 13 year old Christian perhaps just baptized is going to be different in some ways from the way he will be after he has been a Christian a long time. At least he should be if he is growing. Yet if he is totally committed to Christ along the way, the Bible calls him a mature Christian whether he is 13 or 45.

Even Christ grew spiritually and learned obedience and faith in His Father through the things he suffered and experienced. That doesn't mean he was imperfect or sinned at any point. At 9 He did not know what He knew at 12, and at 12 He did not know what he knew at 29.



I agree with you about the last generation. But God has had those kinds of people all through history. Think of Enoch, for instance. There have been others.

I think you're terribly, tragically mistaken to think that we must wait until something happens in the future before we can begin practicing this kind of connection and surrender. Those who wait for something to happen before they get totally connected or surrendered will not be ready for the coming of Christ. Now is the time to put that kind of faith into practice.

It may be compared to the children of Israel who were on the borders of Promised Land and felt that they didn't need to practice faith until they actually set foot on the other side of the Jordan. A whole generation who felt that way died in the wilderness and didn't make it in. They should have been learning and practicing that faith while they had opportunity and not have put it off.

A mistaken idea is that God is waiting for a particular time before He comes, but every generation could be the one to be translated if we will fully obey God and get ready. It's the same with the children who died in the wilderness: God was willing to take them straight into the Promised Land. It wasn't God's fault that they did not go in right away. So also God is waiting for a spiritual condition in His church. The condition is reflecting Jesus Christ. When that condition is reached, God will allow those events in the world to occur that have been prophesied in the Bible, such as the the end of probation and the seven last plagues, etc. The reflection of Jesus does not come after those events but BEFORE they occur. The bride of Christ, His church, makes herself ready for the wedding, and this is why Jesus comes for them.

This is something that Ellen White says over and over again. Are we listening?




I agree with you here. The closer we get to Christ while on this earth, the more we see our difference from His sinless character. Yet the Holy Spirit also shows us how He has been leading us and we know that we are God's children because we can see what He has done in our lives as we remember the past. Our spiritual victories give us confidence that we belong to God and that Jesus is in our lives. (See 1 John 2: 28, 29; 3: 17-23; 4:17; 5:4,5, 10-15.)



It seems here you are talking about being absolutely perfect and sinless, and if that's what you mean, then I completely agree with you. We won't have "holy flesh" or be sinless as God is sinless until the translation.