I believe it will take total separation from "the world" (which is under Lucifer's principle of "self") in order to fully mature. I mean, think about it, here in America the whole concept of Capitalism is based on the principle of "self" - as in self-seeking, you know...me, me, me....Everything in this world is based on the love of self - everything!

Turn to 1 John 2:15

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. [Why?] 16 For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes [i.e., what he sees he wants] and the boasting [i.e., educationally, economically, etc...] of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.

Sequeira puts it like this:

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

Some good points. I don't have any disagreement with the critique of capitalism or about selfishness, but I just don't understand the idea that we can wait until the last generation, when the fact is we could be that last generation.

It seems to me that we ought to be preparing now for that time when we will need to be separated from the world. Why not do it now, I mean.

@Robert and Redwood

Do you turn every thread into a debate for "New Theology", aka "Holy Flesh" doctrine? The Bible commands that you should be disfellowshipped, that if we allow you in our house or even bid you Godspeed, then we partake of your evil deeds. To stay faithful to Christ I would have to ban you for teaching that Jesus did not come in the flesh. You should also be disfellowshipped from the SDA church.

If we don't disfellowship you, we disobey the Apostles.

For those who have not hardened their hearts, I will say a few things that you may resist this apostasy.

Take heed. This "New Theology satisfies a big demand. Lots of people want to sin and not feel bad.



Doug Bachelor always says if you say you can't overcome sin, you're saying your devil is more powerful than your God. It's Satan who gets you to doubt the Word of God and sin and it's God who gives you victory over sin.

Sin is a choice that you make not something that you just have to keep doing until Jesus comes. When the temptation comes, you can choose to give in or to resist. It's that simple. Those who know Christ will choose to resist and continue to resist until the temptation goes away. If they fail, the Lord will pick them up as long as they repent and are not willing to justify their sin.

I take my stand with Doug Bachelor, Joe Crews, Brian McMahon, Lyle Albrecht, Jack Colon, David Asscherick, and all the rest who are seen on 3abn and Amazing Facts. How do I know they teach victory over sin? Because I know 3abn won't allow those who are defiled by the "New Theology" error. Nor is it allowed in Amazing Facts. The SDA church should disfellowship people for it.

Here's an article by Joe Crews:
Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

Here's another quote:



Then there's Ellen White. In all her writings she never says it's impossible to overcome sin.



The "Holy Flesh" doctrine denies that Jesus came in the flesh, therefore it is Antichrist.



John says antichrist denies that Jesus came in the flesh, then says "... Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God", (2 John 1:9).

They transgress, because they think they have to. They don't understand that Jesus came in the flesh an condemned sin in the flesh.



Ellen White tells us that we have to condemn sin in the flesh too:



I brace myself to endure the hardness of your hearts.

"Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it" (Psalm 34:14; 1 Peter 3:11).
og

I agree with you here. There is no excuse for sin. Ellen White also makes this statement. To sin is to willfully decide against God because the power to not sin is available to each of us. I'm glad to have you on my side because few here will agree with us.



But it is when you quote someone like Joe Crews that you really lose me. I'm sorry. But I have to try hard to not laugh. You don't want to get me started on quoting Joe Crews. But you might refer to some previous threads that I've started on the topic of Joe Crews. Some interesting reading.

Hmmm? Something must have pricked your conscience to make you turn on me like this? I hope that I've illustrated the impossibility of gaining heaven by your law keeping even though there's growth. You see my friend you are falling short of God's apage love unless you can prove to me that there's absolutely no "self-seeking" in your life.




In other words your faithfulness to Christ is conditional on having me banned? Sounds like you're power hungry, which is a sinful attribute. Sad day.....

As for Joe Crews, well, that's where my hell on earth began. He meant well, but heresy is still just that....Joe Crews was a fine subtle legalist.



Paul says that we are continually falling short of God's agape love. John says if we ever come to the point of saying we are without sin we are most deceived (see Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8) Even Ellen G. White essentially states the same when she states that there'll be no point where we can claim perfection. Look it up.....




You love yourself, don't you? The law commands us to take that love of self and redirect it to our neighbors (even our enemies). Are you resisting that temptation or do you justify your love of self. It was Lucifer who develop this u-turn agape. This is what you fail to understand!



You do that because I'll take my stand with Christ my righteousness. While these men have some good things to say, they also teach heresy. It's called "another gospel", which is good old fashioned legalism and self-righteousness.



Wrong! The Holy Flesh doctrine states we can be perfect while in the flesh. This doctrine has nothing to do with the humanity of Christ. You are simply confused.

So let's get you straight on the facts. Look up 1 Cor 13:3

"If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love [agape], it [the act] is meaningless."

You were not born with agape (a selfless love). You were born selfish and from the moment you took your first breath all you did outwardly was out of your love for self. Hence, as David states, you and I were sinners by birth.

Now look at how Paul defines holiness: 4 [agape] is patient, [agape] is kind. [agape]does not envy, [agape] does not boast, [agape] is not proud. 5 [agape] is not rude, [agape] is not self-seeking....

Now let's reference EGW: In explaining agape, Ellen states:

“...There will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. [Now she gives an example:] You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

Note your ambition should be centered in others. Your desires shouldn't be inward, as in my wealth, my education, my this...my that. Everything you do should be for others. You should live for their prosperity and they yours. That's how it will be in heaven where there's no sin (selfishness).

Now let's see what Ellen states concerning sin:

"There should be less proud self-seeking, less self-importance. When the members of the church are clothed with humility, when they put from them self-esteem and self-seeking, when they seek constantly to do God's will, then they will work together in harmony." [5T, 479]

Note she didn't say, "There should be no self-seeking [sin]". In other words she is saying sin less. She didn't say a little sin is okay...no, but then again she understood our human predicament. Even Christ said, "The spirit [the person] is willing, but the flesh is weak."

We are sinners, although growing. You will never be good enough for heaven outside Christ your righteousness. Get that down.

I do have to disagree with you Rob. There was nothing subtle about it.

Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to [agape] one another, for he who [agapes] his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore [agape] is the fulfillment of the law.

Please note agape (a love that has no self-seeking in it) fulfills the law. So you can outwardly refrain from murder, theft, coveting, etc, but (as Paul states in 1 Cor chapter 13) if agape isn't controlling your thoughts every good thing you do outwardly will be motivated by selfishness.

How? Go to Matthew 23:5 “Everything they do [i.e., their works...their law keeping] is done for men to see..." That's self-seeking...glory for me!

In other words they seem to be keeping the law, but in reality they are keeping sin. Any good deed you do better be motived by agape (which comes from the Spirit), or all your deeds are meaningless...they are filthy rags.

When you tell folks you better keep the law or else what are you appealing to:

1] Apage or

2] sin (the love of self).

Right, sin! Keeping the law to be saved is not keeping the law. It's keeping sin because you are motivated by self-seeking...i.e., hope of a reward or fear of hell.

You really need to re-think your theology. I suggest putting Joe Crews aside....

Rob

Pure legalism is salvation by law - salvation by being good.

Subtle legalism is teaching that we are saved partially by Christ and partially by our works.

Joe taught the latter.

Rob