"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes." Psalm 118:9 KJV

Perhaps if the body of believers had always felt the need to search out the Lord for themselves, comparing Scripture with Scripture with what was presented from the pulpit, perhaps we wouldn't now have such a dearth of spiritual knowledge.



And, as in every age, to know that what we believe is what the Scripture reveals.

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1 KJV
Regards!

" And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." Revelation 12:7,8 KJV

While it is true God's foreknowledge of the tares growing with the wheat were needed to develop the remnant, it is also true that it was to meet man's deficiency, not His primary desire.

"Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!" Matthew 18:7 KJV
Regards!

I believe this is true. It's exactly what the Bible clearly teaches.



I think we have to consider the difference between those who wish to join us in worship and study and fellowship and those who join our church and then begin teaching false doctrines.

While I believe your attitude of wanting to include everyone in a circle of love is commendable, I would ask you consider the following points:

Was the fact that Sunday and the immortality of the soul and other false doctrines entered the church anything to praise God about?

If we believe in what either the Bible says about this, or what Ellen White says, we cannot possibly praise God when we see false doctrines entering the church.

Check out 1 Tim 4: 1-- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils....

2 Timothy 4:-- 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts. 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned toward fables.

Yes, I know there are many people for whom much of the Bible does not make sense. But while it may not make sense to some people, yet that is exactly what the following texts and others tell us. Consider:

Saint Paul speaks of believers "having, holding, possessing" [Gk, echo] the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9).

The Holy Spirit is in those who keep God's commandments (1 John 3: 24; 4:4, 13).

The Bible says that believers in Christ may "have, hold, possess" the Son, and through this "having" or "possessing" of the Son, we also have or possess eternal life (1 John 5:12).

This having or possessing the Son and the Holy Spirit comes to us through continual belief, trust, reliance, faith and confidence in the gospel of Christ (Romans 10: 14-17).

1 John 3: 1-10; 5: 11, 12, 18; and Romans 6 and 8 describe the results of having the Son and having the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe this? Feel free to explain your thoughts about what the Bible says here or elsewhere on the topic.

I have to ask, are you reading what I am saying?????

First off, we are not talking about those who are babes in Christ. We are not talking about spiritual children who are still self-centered and need milk [ie teachings] to get the nurishment that they need. However, peoole who are, like Abraham, God's friends, who are so intimate with God, that they KNOW where to go to meet with people who need God, are people who listen to God very carefully. And chances are, you may not recognise these people. They are pretty humble and seem pretty vulnerable.

These people have grown in Christ to the point that they understand when the Spirit moves them to do something. They also know when the Spirit is telling them to NOT do something. Do these people have a precedence [ie history] of learning the bible. Yes. Do they have a history of talking to God and learning His voice? Yes. Do these people do a lot of biblical reading? yes...Do they have a precidence to do His will? Yes, but the church typically doesn't recognise the workings of God. Do the church recognise when these people give good solid reasons for church business decisions? Yes, they do, drawing on biblical precedent and bilical reasons. Do these people have a special relationship with God? Yes, and a unique perspective, many times that open new meanings to obscure biblical text.


Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



Years of Experience with God? You don't think that the Devil knows how to imatate God's voice? When the bible says it "test"ed Abraham, it means the test was a real test...not a wimpy little quiry if it was God's voice or not. You better believe that the Devil imatated God's voice, and you know that the connundrum of premediated killing ordered by the Deity and His Law that says Thou Shall not murder are litterally opposing one another.

Excuse me, but what do you mean by "**IF** God truely told Abraham..."Look again at Gen. 22:1-2
1Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
2He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you

Either God tested Abraham or He didn't. Which is it? I personally think that He did test Abraham...and the reason He tested him was because he failed Him so many times to save his own skin or improve on God's promises. For example, he didnt claim Sarah as his wife, but was his sister...Or he took Hagar as his 2nd wife, when God only wanted Abraham to have ONE wife....



Ah, spiritual killings....if God asks you to do something, like killing, it isn't really killing/murder....it's...pseudo-killing??? right????

Sorry, murder is murder. Killing is killing. Murder is premeditated killing. And the 10 Commandment Law forbids it. It does not allow for human sacrifices to God, in any religion, Christian, Hebrew or pagan. And as much as Abraham believed that Issac would be resurrected from the dead, Abraham still had to take the life of Issac so as to bring about his resurrection.

I didn't say that. I said that there was a precendent...a history. It begins with the literal Word of the bible, for the babes and children of Christ. But eventually, we grow up. When the mature comes, we put away the childish mannors, and we embrase the adult. We grow up into Christ....and take our places to become His brothers and Sisters, Friends of Jesus. And our friendship is different for each individual. For you, it is the following of the litteral word in all cases...

But, tell me, if you were to follow the literal word, how did yoou ever become married???? I see no place where the bible says,"And Gerry Cablo went forth and took his wife and had wedded bliss all the days of his life." You had to have a lot of counsel..and were led to the conclusion that this woman was to be married to you....how did Jesus allow you this priviledge?

Not sure what you mean by "most often personalized." I'm primarily concerned with the fundamental doctrines of the church that the vast majority of the church's members hold in common. They are the beliefs that members claim to believe when they are baptized into Christ and join the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They are defined in the Fundamental Beliefs as passed by the world church in General Conference.

I think particularly of what are referred to as the "pillars of our faith."

I don't know if you accept Ellen White as a prophet of God, but if you do, (as I do), you probably already know that she mentions the following as being included among the pillars of our faith:

1) The Second Advent of Christ-- Evangelism 624

2) Seventh Day Sabbath-- 7 T 109; Ev. 225, 226

3) Third Angel's Message-- Early Writings 258

4) The Sanctuary In Heaven and Christ's Mediation There-- Ev. 224

5) Non-Immorality of the Wicked-- Early Writings 30

6) Baptism and the Lord's Supper-- Evangelism 273

7) State of the Dead-- Ms. 305; GC 644

8) Creation-- Signs of the Tmes 1/22/ 1899

9) The Perpetuity of the Law-- CW 77; 3 T 202



I think it's safe to assume that the majority of Seventh-day Adventists believe in the above doctrines. At least that has been my experience in the church, and I think that studies done of the members and pastors bear this out.



What accusations do you have reference to? Please be specific so I have something to respond to other than just a generalization.



Perhaps you haven't seen this or heard it but I have and others have as well. True, it is not a large number who are holding or teaching these concepts, yet they are present nevertheless. For instance, we hear them in such words as, "I and everyone else sins willfully and I will continue to practice willful sin as long as I live or until Jesus comes. The power of the Holy Spirit is available for us not to sin but we all do it anyway and do it willfully, but God has taken care of it. He died so that I can fail. I know that I am saved anyway. As long as I put faith in Jesus, I know that I will be saved even if I continue to sin, which I am sure to do, until He comes back."

It also comes out in the teaching that appears from time to time which states that no one can possibly obey God's commandments, even through God's grace and with the power of the Holy Spirit. This clearly contradicts Scripture as well as Ellen White. It seems to me that such statements-- that no one can obey God's commandments-- shows a failure to grasp Bible verses like, "He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." If no one can possibly keep the commandments, then that verse means that no one knows Him and no one has the truth in him.

1 John 5: 3 says, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome." But what does that verse mean if we say that no one can possibly obey God's commandments even by means of the Holy Spirit? The only thing it can mean as far as I can see is that the Bible is lying and that there is no love of God. Do you know how else to explain the verse if in fact no one can possibly obey the commandments?

One of the Adventist statements of belief includes the statement, "Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments." What does it mean, though, if we say that it is really quite impossible for anyone to obey the Commandments? Is the fruitage of salvation obedience to the Commandments or not? If it is, then obviously we cannot at the same time maintain that it is impossible for anyone to obey them. To do so would be to make a complete mockery of the English language.

This flatly contradicts not only the Bible but many clear statements in the writings of Ellen White. The only way anyone can defend such false beliefs is by rejecting or evading certain Bible verses or certain writings of Ellen White in which those issues are addressed.

Moreover, it's a teaching which runs completely counter to the Seventh-day Adventist view of Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary.

That statement of belief says, in part, "The investigation judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom."

Obviously, then, there must be some who are keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. A teaching that no one can keep the commandments is, therefore, clearly untrue and a invalid. Such teaches it is utterly hopeless and impossible to obey God. It teaches that we will be saved in sin rather than from sin, and that God made a way for us to continue to sin and yet enjoy heaven. Such an idea, if accepted among us, and put into practice, would lead to doctrinal confusion and to a virtual rejection of the very central pillars of our faith as Seventh-day Adventists.

I firmly believe that this Forum is the very place where such concepts need to be thoroughly studied and discussed openly and honestly. So I welcome this opportunity to address these very important questions and issues. And I welcome any comments or observations you may about them. I would only request that we try to discuss it in the light of what the Bible teaches and what the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes.



If the teaching were to become generally accepted among us that we will continue to deliberately and willfully practice sin until Jesus returns, the church would be in danger of forgetting the purpose for which God originally raised up the Seventh-day Adventist Church. In that case, it would certainly be unable to preach the Third Angel's Message. According to the church's self-understanding, that purpose and the purpose of the Third Angel's Message is to uplift God's downtrodden law and to restore the everlasting gospel to its purity so that a people might be prepared for Christ's soon return. An essential part of that gospel is that Christ ministers in the heavenly sanctuary and empowers us through that ministry to live lives which reflect His character and glorify the Father. This cannot be done if we accept the teaching that all of us will practice sinning willfully and deliberately right up until the moment we die or Jesus comes.

OK. My point all along has been that the Bible is the standard of faith and doctrine, even for mature Christians. I am essentially only repeating and emphasizing 2 Tim. 3: 15-17. Most of what you say above I completely agree with.

However, the part I can't agree on is where you say "the church typically doesn't recognize the workings of God." If you mean that the members of the Adventist church generally or usually don't recognize the workings of God, I couldn't agree.(Perhaps you have reference to the Christian church in general rather than to a specific denomination.) In any case, it no doubt is true of some and perhaps even of many, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the majority of the SDA church, including pastors and leaders, do not recognize the workings of God.

















Yes, of course God tested Abraham.

The word "if" used in that way carries the same meaning as "since." The word "if" is used that way in the NT. Here's one: "IF God is for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8: 31. Do you find that confusing? Are you asking Paul, "Wait just a minute! Is God for us or not?!!!"

I am tempted to say something here but I will bite my tongue. :)



Yes, quite true. Good point.





Do you believe that the Israelites were committing "murder" and violating the Ten Commandments when they destroyed Jericho at God's command? Did Moses commit mass murder in Exodus 32:27, 28?

The answer to these questions is "Yes"....but that is another subject and drifting away from this one...

The point is that each prophet tells of something of the character of God and His dealings with them. Since, according to Paul, we have the mind of Christ, we also [that is, the mature Christians] also are learning some aspect of God that may or may not be in the bible. If not, it may be a truely unique individual experience but not one for the universal church...perhaps like speaking in tongues was for the individual experience, but not for the universal church...

OK, that is fair enough. That will be something to look forward to talking about in the near future-- but only once I first get a little shut-eye after being up all night.