>>>The other option is: We love Him because He first loved us.
Jesus: If you love me, you will keep my commandments Jn 14:15 ESV.

Fine. But is the Torah the commandments of Jesus? No. You would be closer to the meaning of John 14:15 if you were to get on board with Matthew 5-7.

>>>Paul: Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Rom 13:10 ESV.

To appeal to Paul for support fot the idea of Christian law observance is absurd. Clearly Paul saw the law as antithetical to Christianity!

Bill Ross

>>>The other option is: We love Him because He first loved us.
Jesus: If you love me, you will keep my commandments Jn 14:15 ESV.

I believe that you presume that the Torah contains the commandments of Jesus?

>>>Paul: Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Rom 13:10 ESV.

Paul is speaking about civil obligation (note the context about authorities, paying taxes). He is not speaking of obligation toward God:

Rom 13:8 Owe no **man** any thing, but to love **one another**: for he that **loveth another** hath fulfilled the law.

But he says to not accept any obligation toward anyone other than that:

Romans 13:8 **Owe no man any thing, but** to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

You are prooftexting - taking a passage out of context and considering it "trump" over the explicit teaching of Scripture which is that the believer is not beholden to the Torah.

Ga 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit [breath], ye are not under the law.

Bill Ross

Paul saw the moral law and God's grace as two sides of the same coin. Christ died to uphold God's law. The one could not exist without the other. It is law that drive us to Christ for salvation. The law shows us our sins. Without the law and recognition of our ourselves as sinners, there is no reason to go to Christ.

A true understanding of God's mercy and grace would never lead anyone to presume they can disobey God's law. God's law defines sin, and therefore, if you take away God's law, there is no sin.

Paul's question is, Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all. It's true faith that causes us to obey God.

See 1 Cor. 7: 19: What counts is not circumcision but keeping the commandments. But it is obedience that springs from faith. Rom. 1:5.

Yes, Jesus upheld the Torah. He showed its spiritual nature, that the law has to do with the heart and not only with outward acts. It also has to do with the mind, the desires, etc. See the entire sermon on the mount at Matt. 5 through 8.

>>>Paul saw the moral law and God's grace as two sides of the same coin.

What is the "moral law?"

>>>Christ died to uphold God's law.

Actually, Christ died to justify God for failing to uphold the law! God, as moral governor, is obligated to repay people for their offenses against others:

Ro 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

(He is under no obligation to extract vengeance on offences against himself, though).

So if God is going to fail to pay what he owes, he needs a justification. That is the stated purpose of the death of Jesus:

Romans 3:
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare [to his subjects] his righteousness for the remission [forgiveness] of sins that are past, through the forbearance [indulgence] of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his [God's] righteousness: that he [God] might be just[ified], and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

>>>The one could not exist without the other.

Are you talking about the law of Moses? Because that wasn't always around.

>>>It is law that drive us to Christ for salvation. The law shows us our sins.

What about Romans 2?

>>>Without the law and recognition of our ourselves as sinners, there is no reason to go to Christ.

What about conscience?

>>>A true understanding of God's mercy and grace would never lead anyone to presume they can disobey God's law.

You use the term "God's law" "God's moral law" ... I'm not sure what you are speaking of. We are discussing the law of Moses. Obviously, the law of Christ (ie: Matt 5-7), the law of faith, these are not the laws to whom the believer dies.

>>>God's law defines sin, and therefore, if you take away God's law, there is no sin.

Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

>>Paul's question is, Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all. It's true faith that causes us to obey God.

The law of Moses remains un-repealed and unaltered. It is completely in tact - every last statute:

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The law did not die, but the believer died to it. In fact, if a believer becomes circumcised, he falls from favor and is cursed in the obligation to keep every last one of its precepts:

Gal 5:
1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

The law that Paul says is established is the law of faith:

Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Consider the illustration in the book of Esther. There was an unalterable law that was going to result in the Jews being destroyed, but the king could not rescind it. Instead, he passed a second law which resulted in their being saved:

Esther 8:
8 Write ye also for the Jews, as it liketh you, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s ring: for the writing which is written in the king’s name, and sealed with the king’s ring, may no man reverse.
9 Then were the king’s scribes called at that time in the third month, that is, the month Sivan, on the three and twentieth day thereof; and it was written according to all that Mordecai commanded unto the Jews, and to the lieutenants, and the deputies and rulers of the provinces which are from India unto Ethiopia, an hundred twenty and seven provinces, unto every province according to the writing thereof, and unto every people after their language, and to the Jews according to their writing, and according to their language.
10 And he wrote in the king Ahasuerus’ name, and sealed it with the king’s ring, and sent letters by posts on horseback, and riders on mules, camels, and young dromedaries:
11 Wherein the king granted the Jews which were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, to slay, and to cause to perish, all the power of the people and province that would assault them, both little ones and women, and to take the spoil of them for a prey,
12 Upon one day in all the provinces of king Ahasuerus, namely, upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar.
13 The copy of the writing for a commandment to be given in every province was published unto all people, and that the Jews should be ready against that day to avenge themselves on their enemies.
14 So the posts that rode upon mules and camels went out, being hastened and pressed on by the king’s commandment. And the decree was given at Shushan the palace.

>>See 1 Cor. 7: 19: What counts is not circumcision but keeping the commandments. But it is obedience that springs from faith. Rom. 1:5.

Not the commands of Moses! Not obedience to the law of Moses! C'mon!

Paul passionately used so much ink to show the believer is not under the jurisdiction of the Torah. How can you not see that?

Bill Ross

>>>Yes, Jesus upheld the Torah. He showed its spiritual nature, that the law has to do with the heart and not only with outward acts. It also has to do with the mind, the desires, etc. See the entire sermon on the mount at Matt. 5 through 8.

The "Sermon on the Mount" is not the Torah. Jesus was speaking on his own authority in contrast to "them of the past":

Matthew 5:
27 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time [ie: Moses], Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 ***But I say*** unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 ***It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement*** [by Moses]:
32 ***But I say*** unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matt 7:
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Jesus was not expounding Torah but rather giving a new Torah.

Bill Ross

This is true. But Jesus upheld the Torah. He gave the true meaning of the Torah. It was Jesus Christ who gave the law to Moses and inspired him to write the Torah, and then when He came as a man, Jesus told us what the Torah means. It was because of who He is/was, that He could say things like, "Moses said such and such, or you have read such and such. However, I-- I am saying....---"

But if we read carefully, this "other" that Jesus spoke was the true intent and objective of the Torah.

>>>This is true. But Jesus upheld the Torah. He gave the true meaning of the Torah.

Are we told anywhere that Jesus gave the true meaning of the Torah?

Is this the true meaning?:

Mt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

>>>It was Jesus Christ who gave the law to Moses and inspired him to write the Torah,

Jesus says in the Sermon... "But I say" not "I said that but I meant this!"

To your mind, Jesus is Yehovah? Moses saw Jesus' face? What face did he have if he was without a human body?

Ex 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Nu 14:14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
De 5:4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
De 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

>>>and then when He came as a man, Jesus told us what the Torah means.

So "thou shalt not murder" really means all of this?;

21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

What, pray tell, imaginitive thing does it mean to be "dead to the law?" If one is still married to it, then they are not free to marry another!

Bill Ross

I don't think Jesus gave the false meaning of the Torah.

Yes, I really do believe that that is the true meaning of the Torah. God is willing to accept us where we are and work with us to bring us up higher. He sometimes "winks" at humanity's ignorance and sins, but now is calling all of us to repentance and full faith.

That is the true meaning of Torah. The true meaning is love for God and love for our fellow man. Another true meaning is that the Messiah would one day come and put an end to animal sacrifices and, ultimately, to death itself. The prophets of the Old Testament did not contradict Torah, either, and they spoke of all this. God simply could not give all truth to a people that had just come out of generations of slavery in Egypt.

What did Paul mean about being "dead to the law" and "free from the law" and "not under the law"?

Bill