It is more absurd to think that because Paul is against obedience to law as a way of earning one's way into heaven that he is therefore against obedience to law. Nothing could be farther than the truth!!! That same Paul whom you claim saw the law "as antithetical to Christianity" had this to say:

"Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law....Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Rom 13:8,10 ESV.

What law was he talking about? He makes it clear when he says:

"The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,' and any other commandments are summed up in this word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Rom 13:9 ESV.

Again, the same Paul says:

"Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for muderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine...." 1 Tim 1:8-10 ESV

How can/does one misuse the law? The most egregious one is of course using the law as a way to gain entrance into heaven. He clearly points out that the law is not laid down for loving, obedient people but for the lawless, the disobedient, etc. etc. So when even a believer willfully does something evil, the long arm of the law reaches even to him because believers cannot continue to live in sin just because they are under grace, Rom 6:1,2. Grace was extended to sinners "to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of His name among all the nations..." Rom 1:5 ESV.

Gerry

>>>...So when even a believer willfully does something evil,

Would not observing the Sabbath, dietary, sacrifice or festival statues of Torah be "something evil?"

>>>the long arm of the law reaches even to him because believers cannot continue to live in sin just because they are under grace, Rom 6:1,2....

So in what sense is the curse (the law) broken?:

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Are not believers still under the curse that is the law then if to violate it brings its curses?

>>>Grace was extended to sinners "to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of His name among all the nations..." Rom 1:5 ESV.

Ac 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were ***obedient to the faith***.

Have you died to the law in order to be married to another? Or are you still married?

Bill Ross

Bill Ross [/quote]

I believe you have a misunderstanding about the Sermon on the Mt. Jesus said:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill [Gk pleroo - to make full, fill to the full, to complete, to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be - Enhanced Strong's Lexicon] them." Mt 5:17 ESV.

Jesus did not only carry out what the law demanded, He also came to "magnify His law and make it glorious," Isa 42:21 ESV, to teach and show the full meaning of the law. That is what the Sermon on the Mt is - the law magnified and made glorious.

Gerry

Let me ask you: Is it evil to willfully disobey the first commandment? i.e. "You shall have no other gods before me." The second? i.e. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image...You shall not bow down to them..." How about the third? i.e. "You shall not take the name of LORD your God in vain..." How about the fifth? i.e. "Honor your father and your mother." How about the 7th? "You shall not commit adultery."

If it is evil to break 9 of the 10, what makes you think breaking the 4th is excempted and not evil?

Was it evil for Adam & Eve to disregard what God said not to eat?

As for the shadowy/typical aspects of the law that pointed to the sacrificial work of Christ, yes, they ended at the Cross.

No doubt you have heard this illustration. It's an old one, but it will serve the purpose nonetheless. You are caught speeding or driving recklessly. You are hauled to court. You are found guilty. To keep you out of jail, here are your options. 1) The judge dismisses the charges and puts you on probation, 2) You or someone pays a fine. You walk out of the courtroom. What would happen if you drive recklessly again?

Here is what the Bible says about Abraham whom Paul cites in Rom 4 as a paragon of faith: "...Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." Gen 26:5 ESV.

How is one released from the law? "Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear FRUIT for God." Rom 7:4 ESV. "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." Gal 2:20,21 ESV. "What then? Are we to sin (transgressing the law) because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness." Rom 6:15-18 ESV.

The law cannot lay claim on a person who is dead!!! Dead people cannot go on worshiping idols. Dead people cannot keep on fornicating or murdering!!!

Here is what seems to be a paradox which a lot of antinomian Christians cannot seem to understand: Obedience to the law is liberty (that's why the Apostle James calls it "the law of liberty"); disobedience is slavery - slavery to sin, NOT slavery to the law!

Gerry

>>>I believe you have a misunderstanding about the Sermon on the Mt. Jesus said:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill [Gk pleroo - to make full, fill to the full, to complete, to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be - Enhanced Strong's Lexicon] them." Mt 5:17 ESV.

A Lexicon offered all that foolishness? I mean, PLEROO is a Greek word, not a religious word, and it decidedly does not mean "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be!" Am I supposed to say, "Oh, if that's what the word means, then of course..."? I loathe it when the "authorities" are "on the take." You should burn that book immediately as it is clearly rubbish.

Now the question is, did Jesus:

* abolish the Torah (No.)
* explain "the Real Meaning of Christmas and the Torah"? (No.)
* add to the Torah (No.)
* give a new Torah (Yes,)

>>>Jesus did not only carry out what the law demanded, He also came to "magnify His law and make it glorious," Isa 42:21 ESV, to teach and show the full meaning of the law. That is what the Sermon on the Mt is - the law magnified and made glorious.

NO:

Ps 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Jesus did not have the authority to change a ratified covenant between God and the Jews:

Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Da 6:8 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.

He came to establish a new covenant that was so glorioius that it made the glory of the first covenant to disappear:

2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

Bill Ross

>>>Let me ask you: Is it evil to willfully disobey the first commandment? i.e. "You shall have no other gods before me."

How can someone disobey a lwa that was never commanded to them in the first place? In order to disobey the laws of Portugal you would have to be under that law. It is a matter of jurisdiction. There are laws against murder in many countries but I could kill a million people and never have disobeyed those laws because those laws do not apply to me. But if I were under any of those laws and violated ANY ONE OF THEM, I would be a law-breaker. You don't get to pick and choose when you are under a jurisdiction.

>>>The second? i.e. "You shall not make for yourself a carved image...You shall not bow down to them..." How about the third? i.e. "You shall not take the name of LORD your God in vain..." How about the fifth? i.e. "Honor your father and your mother." How about the 7th? "You shall not commit adultery."

Ditto.

>>>If it is evil to break 9 of the 10, what makes you think breaking the 4th is excempted and not evil?

Your logic is fine, but your assumption is bogus. Unless one accepts circumcision and becomes a Jew then they are not under the Jewish laws:

Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

>>>Was it evil for Adam & Eve to disregard what God said not to eat?

Adam transgressed. He disobeyed a command given to him:

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Ro 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

>>>As for the shadowy/typical aspects of the law that pointed to the sacrificial work of Christ, yes, they ended at the Cross.

NO.

Matthew 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy [parse] the law [into binding and unbinding], or the prophets: I am not come to destroy [parse], but to fulfil [undo such parsing].
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, **till all be fulfilled**.

Bill Ross

>>>...How is one released from the law? "Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear FRUIT for God." Rom 7:4 ESV.

But what produces that fruit? Paul contrasts a life led by the breath to one led by the law:

Gal 5:
18 But ***if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law***.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

>>>"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." Gal 2:20,21 ESV.

Who's side are you on?

>>>"What then? Are we to sin (transgressing the law)

That is not what Paul says sin is. Nor John. Sin is ANOMIA - which means "unprincipled behavior" - it is not a reference to the Torah.

>>>because we are not under law but under grace?

"WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW..."

>>>By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience,

Sin or Obedience - but not obedience to the Torah but to the faith, to the teaching of Jesus, God, - but not Torah.

>>>which leads to righteousness?

Paul said the Torah does NOT lead to righteousness.

>>>But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness." Rom 6:15-18 ESV.

The teaching of Paul - that one is not under the Torah but rather justified by faith apart from the religious activities of the law...

>>>Here is what seems to be a paradox which a lot of antinomian Christians cannot seem to understand: Obedience to the law is liberty (that's why the Apostle James calls it "the law of liberty"); disobedience is slavery - slavery to sin, NOT slavery to the law!

Gal 4:
21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Paul would really not like you and would "stand in doubt of you":

Gal 4:
20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for **I stand in doubt of you**.
21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Bill Ross

How about "having been set free from sin" (Romans 6: 18)?

Are we set free from sin and also set free from righteousness?

Remember that the definition of righteousness is doing right, or conforming to the standard of God's moral law or God's will. God's will is His law. The law reveals what God's will is. His law reveals His character. God is love. Therefore, the law of God is also love.

1) "Dead to the law." First of all, it's important to keep in mind it does not say the law is dead. It says believers die to the law.

It means being dead as far as the law is concerned. Since we died to the law through the body of Christ, that is, died with Him on the cross, (the law being the instrument of our death), we are no longer under the control or the rule of the law. It is similar to the expression of "not being under law."

Notice in both Romans 7:4 and Gal. 2: 19, that the purpose of our dying to the law is that we live for God. Living for God means living according to God's will.

2) "Free from the law." First of all, remember that Paul has just said in Roman 6: 18 that believers have been set free from sin and have become slaves of righteousness.

Notice Romans 7: 2, 3, 6.

1-3 You shouldn't have any trouble understanding this, friends, for you know all the ins and outs of the law—how it works and how its power touches only the living. For instance, a wife is legally tied to her husband while he lives, but if he dies, she's free. If she lives with another man while her husband is living, she's obviously an adulteress. But if he dies, she is quite free to marry another man in good conscience, with no one's disapproval.
4-6 So, my friends, this is something like what has taken place with you. When Christ died he took that entire rule-dominated way of life down with him and left it in the tomb, leaving you free to "marry" a resurrection life and bear "offspring" of faith for God. For as long as we lived that old way of life, doing whatever we felt we could get away with, sin was calling most of the shots as the old law code hemmed us in. And this made us all the more rebellious. In the end, all we had to show for it was miscarriages and stillbirths. But now that we're no longer shackled to that domineering mate of sin, and out from under all those oppressive regulations and fine print, we're free to live a new life in the freedom of God. (The Message)

3) Under the law. See Romans 6: 14, 15; 1 Cor. 9: 20; 14: 21; Gal. 3: 23; 4: 4, 5, 21; 5: 18. Being under the law means one is attempting to be justified by works of law. Justification-- or restoration of the sinner's broken relationship with God-- only come by God's grace through faith in Christ. Notice in 6: 14 that only the grace of God can keep sin from reestablishing its rule over us. Therefore sin will not have dominion over you. God's grace enables you to obey God's law. See Romans 8: 3-5. Under the New Covenant, God writes His law in our hearts and on our minds, so that obedience results from faith.

What does Paul mean by "led by the breath," as you put it? Why not "wind"?

What or who is this "breath" referred to?

How are we led by the "breath"? Are you led by the breath? How do you know?

People won't accept your expertise in Greek and reject standard authorities, authorities who have been recognized by the world's leading translators and scholars in Koine Greek. I think it's unreasonable to expect them to do that.

Here on the Forum we expect members to show valid documentation for their opinions of what they claim the Greek says or means. Otherwise it is merely personal opinion. Please show documentation by recognized authorities in the Koine Greek for your statement that "PLEROO is a Greek word, not a religious word, and it decidedly does not mean 'to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be!'

If you cannot, you may not accept the quote from Strong's Enhanced Lexicon, but you won't be able to blame others if they do. The point being made by Strong is that in the context in which it occurs in that NT verse, it carries the above meaning.

You've made the claim that the book by the authorities is rubbish and ought to be burned. Can you show this to be true in this instance?