#177611 - 07/21/08 11:15 PM
Confusing Bible Story..........
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Beginning to post a bit...
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 9
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I don't quite remember the story, but here it goes:
In the Old Testament, Kings or Samuel, there is an instance where a prophet of God disobeys the instructions of another prophet (or obeys it but it was against the will of God)...not so sure now. Either way, the first prophet was killed (by God, I suppose) for his lack of faith and following directions, even though he thought he would obey the other prophet (over God). I am not clear on how the story really goes. I'm trying to locate it again but I'm having a hard time.
Question is: Did one prophet trick another prophet into disobedience? It's crazy to think that could happen to us even today....be tricked by a church member? Who then is the greater sinner? The one who disobeyed or the one who seemed to have tricked the other?
I had very mixed emotions about this story and was truly confused when I read this passage (but again, I can't seem to locate it now) Help me please and explain it to me if I am not understand the lesson that is there for me.
Can someone shed LIGHT on this.....?
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#177669 - 07/22/08 02:31 PM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: tribeofjudah]
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Latitudinarian
Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 969
Loc: Silver Spring, MD, USA
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Yes, it is one of those strange stories that is very difficult to understand. It is found in 1 Kings 13. On another thread some time back I cited it as an example of what appears to be God sanctioned lying. And it illustrates a serious point about the imperfection of a prophet.
In short, the man of God was given very specific traveling instructions for returning from a mission. A prophet intercepted him and persuaded the man of God to deviate from his God given directions by an extraordinary lie - that he had a message from God that the directions had been changed. A bit later God did give a message of stern rebuke and judgment to the lying prophet for the disobedient man of God that he would die for his disobedience. Ultimately the man of God was killed by a lion and the lying prophet went unpunished.
Tom
_________________________
"Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good."
"Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal."
"I love God only as much as the person I love the least."
*Forgiveness is always good news.
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#177677 - 07/22/08 06:39 PM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: Tom Wetmore]
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Beginning to post a bit...
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 9
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Thank you Tom for your response. I am understanding it more clearly now. I also posted this question to Amazing Facts and here is a reply from a staff member there:
"That story is found in 1 Kings 13. God specifically told the prophet not to eat or drink there in Bethel, and he was not to go back the way he came (verses 8, 9). The prophet was well aware of what his duty to God was. When he was approached by the false prophet to come home and eat with him he initially refused (verses 16, 17). The false prophet then told him an angel had sent him to relay the message that he was to come home with him. The prophet should have known that this was not true; God had given him the directions personally, and he should have realized that God would not inform him of such a drastic change through someone he didn't even know. In essence, the whole thing should have been an obvious red flag to him.
God knows the hearts of men, and in this He was testing the prophet's loyalty to Him. It is apparent that this man was not completely loyal in heart, or God would not have tested him in such a way.
This lesson is just as valid for us today. God gives us truth in His word, which we as His people are to follow. When someone comes along claiming to be a Christian and tries to persuade us to accept theology that is contrary to God's word, we are to turn away from it, just as the prophet was to turn away from the temptation to act contrary to God's instructions. We show our loyalty to God by faithfully adhering to His word. In doing that we are saved. If we entertain false doctrine because it is pleasing to our senses, in the end it will destroy us. The allegory of the harlot in Proverbs 7:7-27 is an excellent sketch of what happens when we allow someone to lure us from God's truth to false doctrine.
Though it seemed like the false prophet in 1 Kings 13 got off scot-free, the Bible tells us that those who deliberately try to lure God's people off the path of obedience will not go unpunished (Matt. 5:19)."
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#177704 - 07/23/08 01:36 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: tribeofjudah]
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Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 2787
Loc: Ohio
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#177804 - 07/23/08 06:44 PM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: tribeofjudah]
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Latitudinarian
Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 969
Loc: Silver Spring, MD, USA
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Interesting explanation. But a number of points are being read into the text in order to make the point. That prophet is not identified in Scripture as a false prophet. He is identified in neutral terms simply as a prophet. And the text also says that the "word of the Lord came to him" and he conveyed that divine message to the disobedient man of God. Now if he was a false prophet, and a lying one besides, why would God opt to speak through him? Why not speak directly to the man of God as before? If God needed to give the clear and immediate message of the consequences of disobedience, why not include the liar too, since that disobdience makes the top ten list of sins?
Tom
_________________________
"Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good."
"Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal."
"I love God only as much as the person I love the least."
*Forgiveness is always good news.
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#177812 - 07/23/08 07:36 PM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: D. Allan]
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Beginning to post a bit...
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 9
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Thanks Tom, I too don't think that it speaks about a false prophet. It just states that the prophet lied, on purpose, to test the other prophet's allegiance to God. He failed the test. D. Allan also makes a good point above. Here is something I found on the NET: 2. (18-19) The prophet from Bethel lies to the man of God from Judah.
He said to him, “I too am a prophet as you are, and an angel spoke to me by the word of the Lord, saying, ‘Bring him back with you to your house, that he may eat bread and drink water.’ “ (He was lying to him.) So he went back with him, and ate bread in his house, and drank water.
a. He was lying to him: The prophet from Bethel gave a false word from God, trying to persuade the man of God from Judah to change his course from doing exactly what God told him.
i. “As he found the man of God sitting under an oak, probably faint with fatigue and fasting, for he had no refreshment, his humanity might have led him to practise this deception, in order to persuade him to take some refreshment.” (Clarke)
ii. “But his sin was great; for he did not only tell a premeditated lie, but also made God a liar, and to contradict himself, and all this without any pretence of necessity, or benefit to himself.” (Poole)
b. An angel spoke to me: Perhaps this was true, and perhaps it was a deceiving angel. Satan and his messengers can appear as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
c. So he went back with him, and ate bread in his house, and drank water: The man of God from Judah listened to the lie from the prophet of Bethel. He did this for several reasons:
The prophet from Bethel was probably older (an old prophet, 1 Kings 13:11) and had the respect of the man of God.
The prophet from Bethel identified with the man of God (I too am a prophet as you are).
The prophet from Bethel claimed a spectacular experience (an angel spoke to me).
The prophet from Bethel claimed to speak for the Lord (by the word of the Lord).
The prophet from Bethel did not seem to be an idolater who should be shunned (Bring him back with you to your house).
The prophet from Bethel offered no reward, other than simple food (he may eat bread and drink water).
i. No matter how natural and seductive this enticement was, it was the duty of the man of God to resist it. He had a word from God to guide his actions, and should receive no other word accept through dramatic and direct confirmation by God’s Spirit. His failure at this point ended his usefulness as a man of God.
ii. “When we have received a direct command fresh from the lips of Christ, we must act on it, and not be turned aside by a different suggestion, made to us through the lips of professing Christians . . . Deal with God at first-hand.” (Meyer)
iii. “God never contradicts Himself in His dealings with His servants. Let us be true to His commands, refusing to be deflected from the path of obedience, even by an angel from heaven.” (Morgan)
Edited by tribeofjudah (07/23/08 07:45 PM)
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#177814 - 07/23/08 08:49 PM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: tribeofjudah]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7397
Loc: CA
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In my judgment, both of your last two posts are right on target.
The story of the false lying prophet and the true prophet who accepted the lies contains a great and important lesson for us. Thank you for your posts here.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#177815 - 07/23/08 09:17 PM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: Tom Wetmore]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7397
Loc: CA
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No one is truly neutral in the war between Christ and Satan. People may appear to be neutral, of course, but as this text shows, everyone is on one side or the other and this fact is eventually made clear.
Has there ever been a true prophet of God who lied while God was speaking through them? This prophet lied. The only thing that can mean is that he was a false prophet, since it is impossible for God to lie.
If God chose to speak through the mouth of a donkey as well as through Balaam while he was working for an evil king, there is nothing unreasonable about God's speaking through this false prophet as well. For a few minutes this false prophet was actually inspired by God to deliver a message to "the man of God."
To find out why, read Ellen White's comments on this story in Prophets and Kings, pp. 106, 107 and in 10 SDA BC 1033.
The lesson is that if we know God's will through His revelation, we should not let someone else claiming to be speaking from God to persuade us to disobey what we know God has said.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#177823 - 07/23/08 10:55 PM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: tribeofjudah]
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1372
Loc: Oregon
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Perhaps, the passage is also meant as similitude – a coin found in the sweeping, a treasure in a field, or a pearl of great price...
>>2. (18-19) The prophet from Bethel lies to the man of God from Judah.
He said to him, “I too am a prophet as you are, and an angel spoke to me by the word of the Lord, saying, [...]<< [ed.jasd]
Amos 5:5 But seek not Bethel, nor enter into Gilgal, and pass not to Beersheba: for Gilgal shall surely go into captivity, and Bethel shall come to nought.
There are some what sez..., that this prophecy contains a dual fulfillment; and, there are indicia which correlate to the Modern Church. I find myself tending to agree with one, Harold Camping, in thinking that today’s House of Gd (Bethel) is in view. Example: the Modern Church is
an incorporated church – effectively made – an entity of the State/Caesar.
Might worthship or veneration of a .org equate to idolatry? mebbe, institutional iconolatry? Hmmm.
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#177830 - 07/24/08 01:10 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: jasd]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7397
Loc: CA
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I enjoy listening to Harold Camping sometimes.
There is nothing in the text itself to indicate that is intended to be a "similitude," although there are always good ways to apply the Bible to modern situations. It is talking about actual history. But that is not to say it cannot illustrate the situation we find ourselves in today. In fact, most things in the Bible have lessons for people living at any period of history. I think you are right that it can applied to the worship, etc., of institutions or organizations, especially when they teach what we know to be contrary to what God has revealed before.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#177834 - 07/24/08 01:24 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: John317]
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Beginning to post a bit...
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 9
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John317, you're right on! I will go home today and ready what Mrs. White has to say on this subject.
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#177836 - 07/24/08 01:27 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: tribeofjudah]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7397
Loc: CA
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OK, then tell us what your thoughts are about this. Good subject.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#177838 - 07/24/08 01:52 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: John317]
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Beginning to post a bit...
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 9
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Reading the passage, one would gather that the old prophet felt sorry, pity, and remorse for the death of the prophet.
1Ki 13:29 And the prophet took up the corpse of the man of God, laid it on the donkey, and brought it back. So the old prophet came to the city to mourn, and to bury him.
1Ki 13:30 Then he laid the corpse in his own tomb; and they mourned over him, saying, "Alas, my brother!"
1Ki 13:31 So it was, after he had buried him, that he spoke to his sons, saying, "When I am dead, then bury me in the tomb where the man of God is buried; lay my bones beside his bones.
1Ki 13:32 "For the saying which he cried out by the word of the LORD against the altar in Bethel, and against all the shrines[fn2] on the high places which are in the cities of Samaria, will surely come to pass."
Did the old prophet know that he caused the demise of the other and that now he wanted to be buried next to him? In your opinions out there... will one of them be saved in the Kingdom? Both saved or neither one saved in the Kingdom? Just your opinion......
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#177885 - 07/24/08 05:28 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1372
Loc: Oregon
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>>I enjoy listening to Harold Camping sometimes.<< Yes, Camping..., though one cannot entirely agree with his hermeneutics, I listen, and give him his due. I especially appreciate the music of Family Radio. >>There is nothing in the text itself to indicate that is intended to be a "similitude,"<< 2. (18-19) The prophet from Bethel lies to the man of God from Judah.
He said to him, “I too am a prophet as you are, and an angel spoke to me by the word of the Lord, saying, [...] [ed.jasd] Perhaps, not an indisputable “also meant”, and perhaps not so much a palpable similitude – but a perceptible likeness, yes?  I mean, note carefully, the above vis-à-vis the Modern Church.
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#177897 - 07/24/08 05:55 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: jasd]
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Getting the hang of posting
Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 41
Loc: Michigan
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It is not my understanding that either of the two prophets will be saved. One lied, and the other believed him rather than believing that God would not change His instructions.
I feel that the idea of the old prophet being a false prophet in very correct. A true prophet would not have lied and deceived as this man did. If he is not true, then he has to be a false prophet.
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#177903 - 07/24/08 06:13 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: Marie]
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Swiss n Swedish American
Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 6769
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
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I don't believe that either one is on the list of the saved by Ellen White. See the thread "Those who will be in Heaven" for the list of those who EGW says will be saved. And then you can double check with her list on the thread "Not going to Heaven".
_________________________
Another one of Woodies Goodies
Brought to you by Redwood ... a better tree for a new tomorrow.
Redwood
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#177919 - 07/24/08 08:32 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: Redwood]
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Beginning to post a bit...
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 9
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Here is one from the EG White files:
Chapter 13
11-19. God Alone Can Countermand His Orders.--The man of God had been fearless in delivering his message of rebuke. He had not hesitated to denounce the king's false system of worship. And he had refused Jeroboam's invitation, even though promised a reward. But he allowed himself to be over-persuaded by the one who claimed to have a message from heaven. {2BC 1033.5}
When the Lord gives a man a command such as He gave this messenger, He Himself must countermand the order. Upon those who turn from the voice of God to listen to counter orders, the threatened evil will come. Because this messenger obeyed false orders, God permitted him to be destroyed (MS 1, 1912). {2BC 1033.6}
Edited by tribeofjudah (07/24/08 08:45 AM)
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#177920 - 07/24/08 08:51 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: tribeofjudah]
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Beginning to post a bit...
Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 9
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from Prophets and Kings:
Well would it have been for the prophet had he adhered to his purpose to return to Judea without delay. While traveling homeward by another route, he was overtaken by an aged man who claimed to be a prophet and who made false representations to the man of God, declaring, "I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water." Again and again the lie was repeated and the invitation urged until the man of God was persuaded to return. {PK 106.1}
Because the true prophet allowed himself to take a course contrary to the line of duty, God permitted him to suffer the penalty of transgression. While he and the one who had invited him to return to Bethel were sitting together at the table, the inspiration of the Almighty came upon the false prophet, "and he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the Lord, and hast not kept the commandment which the Lord thy God commanded thee, . . . thy carcass shall not come unto the sepulcher of thy fathers." Verses 18-22. {PK 106.2}
This prophecy of doom was soon literally fulfilled. "It came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass. . . . And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcass was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcass. And, behold, men passed by, and
107
saw the carcass cast in the way, . . . and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt. And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof, he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the Lord." Verses 23-26. {PK 106.3}
The penalty that overtook the unfaithful messenger was a still further evidence of the truth of the prophecy uttered over the altar. If, after disobeying the word of the Lord, the prophet had been permitted to go on in safety, the king would have used this fact in an attempt to vindicate his own disobedience. In the rent altar, in the palsied arm, and in the terrible fate of the one who dared disobey an express command of Jehovah, Jeroboam should have discerned the swift displeasure of an offended God, and these judgments should have warned him not to persist in wrongdoing. But, far from repenting, Jeroboam "made again of the lowest of the people priests of the high places: whosoever would, he consecrated him, and he became one of the priests of the high places." Thus he not only sinned greatly himself, but "made Israel to sin;" and "this thing became sin unto the house of Jeroboam, even to cut it off, and to destroy it from off the face of the earth." Verses 33, 34; 14:16. {PK 107.1}
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#177929 - 07/24/08 11:45 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: tribeofjudah]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7397
Loc: CA
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Terrific posts. Thanks for those quotes.
"When the Lord gives a man a command such as He gave this messenger, He Himself must countermand the order. Upon those who turn from the voice of God to listen to counter orders, the threatened evil will come. Because this messenger obeyed false orders, God permitted him to be destroyed (MS 1, 1912)."
I apply it this way: if I have studied the word of God and am convinced that God wants me to keep the Sabbath because His law is clear about it, I should not let someone come along later and persuade me that it is perfectly OK to go against what I know God has said in His Word.
I have seen the same kind of thing come up in regard to homosexuality. For instance, I've read clear statements in the Bible saying that it is wrong to practice homosexuality. Should I then be persuaded by people who say God does not mean what He had His prophets write about that subject? What could I expect from God if I turn from what I know the Bible teaches and return to homosexual practices? Could I expect God to say it's OK? Should I think it would be OK because after all God forgives and He gave Jesus so I can fall? Can I have homosexual practices and the kingdom of God too? Some would have me believe this, but 1 Cor. 6:9,10 and other Scriptures tell me that this would be a lie.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#178228 - 07/27/08 02:02 AM
Re: Confusing Bible Story..........
[Re: Tom Wetmore]
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Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 7225
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
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When one who is called a prophet utters falsehood, would you not call him/her a false prophet?
When Elijah confronted the prophets of Baal, they were simply described as, "...the 450 prophets of Baal and 400 prophets of Asherah..." 1 Ki 18:19.
"Then Elijah said to the prophets of Baal..." vs 25.
"Seize the prophets of Baal.." vs 40.
Elijah described and contrasted himself as/to, "a prophet of the LORD, but Baal's prophets are 450 men." vs 22.
Your point about the word "prophet" being neutral is well taken. Whether that prophet is a true or false prophet is therefore recognized by what they do or the context. I could be wrong, but when the Bible qualifies it as "a prophet of the LORD," there is no question that that prophet is a true one. And when a prophet is described as "a prophet of Baal or Asherah," that such a one is a false prophet.
Here's another example found in 1 Ki 22. Ahab invites Jehoshaphat to go to war with him.
"And Jehoshaphat said to the king of Israel, 'Inquire first for the word of the LORD.' Then the king of Israel gathered prophets together, about 400 men...." vs. 5,6.
Jehoshaphat no doubt recognized these prophets for what they really were. So he asks:
"Is there not here another prophet of the LORD of whom we may inquire?" vs. 8
Again, the word prophet is used neutrally, but the context leaves no doubt what kinds of prophets the Bible is talking about.
Gerry
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