I thought your eyes were always shut. !!! :)

I notice that your 'pillars' are all from EGW and not the Bible. If they are in the Bible, than use it as a source and not EGW, as it is both a disrespect of her wishes and of the Bible itself.

Your concerns seem to be more about 'weeding' out the church, which in my experience is a more conservative frame of mind, than in seeing what is good about the church and its goals. I will leave the 'weeding' to God, I think he has mentioned that is his work and not ours.

This is a circular topic without any conclusions, destined to repeat itself over and over till hell freezes! Cary on folks...think I will go outside and look for a 'little white cloud'!

These same 'pillars" are those you will find listed in the official beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church. They are doctrines found in the Bible as well as clearly set forth in the writings of Ellen White.

I don't know if you are a Seventh-day Adventists or not. If you are not, or if you do not believe in her as a prophet of God, that is your decision, of course. But you are wrong to believe that it is showing disrespect for Ellen White for Adventists to refer to what she said regarding the church.

Ellen White did not say we shouldn't quote her or discuss what she wrote or said. If you are interested in what she said or taught on this subject, you'll find a lot of what she about it on the first 20 or pages of Volume 1 of Selected Messages.

Seventh-day Adventists believe that the gift of prophecy "is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White-- the Lord's messenger. Her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested." Fundamental Belief, #18.





I am saying that the church has a right and responsibility to know the beliefs of people it accepts into membership and those who claim to represent its views. Anyone, though, can worship and fellowship at an Adventist church or with Adventists, of course.

A study of the NT and the writings of Ellen White show without question that the church itself has the responsibility to regulate who are allowed to become members. God has granted the church this responsibility and duty. See, for instance, 1 Cor. 5; Matt. 18: 15-20; 16: 19. This is an essential part of the church's responsibility.

I write constantly about what is good about the church and its goals. In fact, that is exactly what I have been writing about the whole time. It is impossible for the church's goal to be met if the church is not clear on what its goals are or if the goals are different from what the NT assigns to it. Its goals are essentially to prepare the world for Christ's Second Coming, in the same way that John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way for Christ's first coming.

Do you believe this?

Ellen White did say that she should never be quoted from the pulpit. Some pastors believe in her enough to follow this injunction. Others blantantly disregard her.

If you want the quote ... just PM me. I didn't want to show you up by quoting it here.

Thank you CoA. Good Points. I agree with you. Some here just love to take the opposite side of all issues so that they can debate. Some do not see the good in the church. They love to criticize it. I for one get real tired of this 'weeding' and criticism. We all fail and fall short. Lets show a little love and 'grace'. Our church has so much to offer. But let's not offer the weeding and criticism.

Is the quote you're referring to found in The Story of Prophets and Kings (Mountain View, Calif.: Pacific Press Pub. Assn., 1943), p. 626?

Be that as it may, as far as concerns my use of Ellen White on this thread, her statement about using her writings in the pulpit could not in any case possibly apply here, since I am neither a pastor nor am I quoting her from any pulpit.

Here is what Roger Coon wrote about Mrs. White's statements on the Bible and the place of her writings in the pulpit:

At a camp meeting last spring an Adventist pastor from one of our North American colleges told this experience: One Sabbath, in a certain Sabbath school class taught by a professor on campus and attended by college students, the teacher started out by asking the class members individually what insights they had found in extrabiblical contemporary writings that would bear on the day's lesson study. Responses were offered by way of quotations from such helpful writers as Luther and Calvin, as well as Keith Miller, Paul Tournier, C. S. Lewis, and so on. Next the teacher asked for student reaction to the lesson, and a series of individual testimonies followed. At this point one member of the class, a college student well versed in the writings of Ellen White, said that she had found something helpful, something that met her need, in Mrs. White's writings; but before she could elaborate, the teacher cut her off with the remark, "Let's stay with 'The Bible and the Bible Only' in this class!" Ironically, up until that moment, the direct witness of the Bible had been totally absent from the class!

Ellen White, in addressing Sabbath school teachers in 1900, instructed them to "leave the impression upon the mind that the Bible, and the Bible alone, is our rule of faith." And in the last book she wrote before her death in 1915 she admonished the church's ministers that "the words of the Bible, and the Bible alone, should be heard from the pulpit." Did this mean, as some today allege, that her writings should never be incorporated into a sermon? Not at all.

In a helpful 37-page monograph Arthur L. White, for years the secretary of the Ellen G. White Estate at the General Conference (and himself a grandson of the prophet), surveys the position of the pioneers of our denomination and cites published statements not readily available to the present-day inquirer. He also examines the 13 major statements from Mrs. White's pen in which she used the Reformation slogan "The Bible and the Bible Only," and comes to four conclusions in summarizing the documentary evidence:

That at no time was this phrase employed to exclude the binding obligation to respond to the visions as light which God has given to His people.

That in most instances the words are employed in the setting of contrasting the teachings of God's Word with tradition or man's theories of a false Sabbath, et cetera.

In several cases the words are used in defining our position on the visions with the explanation that to follow the Bible enjoins the acceptance of the workings of the gift of prophecy as binding upon all who accept God's Word, which forecasts the appearance of this gift in the last days.

That through the visions God has led us to a correct understanding of His Word and has taught us and will continue to do so. Further, we must ever recognize our obligation to accept this leading of God.

Arthur White also points out that although the 13 major statements from Ellen White's pen span more than half a century (from 1851 to c. 1914), still the tenor of the statements at the end of her life are not appreciably different from the earliest statements written on the subject.[277] Mrs. White never changed her stand on this subject.

See source: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/rev-insp.html

I believe the following is very important for all Adventists to be aware of and consider:

Seventh-day Adventists believe, upon the basis of biblical evidence as well as empirical data, that one "masterbuilder" (1 Corinthians 3:10) of their denomination, Ellen G. White, was the recipient of the gift of prophecy. Solomon averred that "there is no new thing under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9), and criticism of the prophets continues to this day.

Misunderstanding also continues concerning the manner in which the prophetic gift operates. Satan has a vested interest in creating confusion as well as rejection of the prophetic gift by the people it was intended to benefit, "for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the Spirit of God are heeded." The "very last deception of Satan" in the Seventh-day Adventist church just before Jesus returns will be the twofold work of (1) destroying the credibility of Ellen White as an authentic, reliable prophet of the Lord, and (2) creating a "satanic" "hatred" against her ministry and writings--satanic in its intensity as well as in its origin.

Satan's "special object" in these last days is to "prevent this light from coming to the people of God" who so desperately need it to walk safely through the minefield that the enemy of all souls has so artfully booby trapped.

And what is Satan's methodology for securing this objective? He will work "ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies." For example, in addition to the two methods mentioned above, satanic agencies seek to keep souls under a cloud of doubt, in a hurried state, and in a state of disappointment.

This is Satan's plan--his goal and his strategy. This minicourse is dedicated to the proposition that he shall not succeed!

I agree that God has allowed what is going on, knowing what it will all bring. But to say He does it so it will bring others in.... I can't say that. God never uses un-truth to bring others in whether it is in music types or preaching. He brings people in with Truth. Marie

[quote]If they are in the Bible, than use it as a source and not EGW, as it is both a disrespect of her wishes and of the Bible itself./quote]

Still waiting for the Bible quotes! Her wishes and constant words of telling people to go to their Bibles and not her are very plain...but much forgotten.

Your defense by questioning my beliefs is typical and has been used for decades by those clinging to the words of EGW for their 'beliefs' instead of the Bible. You may turn in circles as much as you please, but until you can stand on the Word of God and it alone, you have a vulnerability that can bring you down.

By the way, not that it makes a bit of difference, I was raised SDA and have a set of the original 3 vol testimonies that my mother gave to me that have so many underlinings and notations that they are following apart. She read a lot, but for her edification and not to base her faith on. She never used them as proof or as a hammer. Her Bible was and is her guide...that is where I got my training from. I attended SDA schools and had EGW pounded into me, but as an adult I did my own reading and digesting of her words and yes....she is being done a disservice in the way that most of the EGW 'quoters' pontificate in the us of her writings.

A circular argument without end...so no, I don't feel a need to reply further on this matter. Seen it, been there, done that...

If you have been studying all the doctrines all these years, then why would you be asking for Bible verses? Bible verses in support of what?

Not sure what you are asking for.

I only asked you about being SDA or believing in Ellen White because I had no idea what your background is. If you are not SDA or if you dislike Ellen White, my approach about those things would be entirely different. For instance, if someone does not accept Ellen White, I wouldn't even bring her up. That is why I ask you about those things.

All of the fundamental SDA doctrines can stand very well on their own by the Bible alone. The reason I mentioned Ellen White is that as Adventists it's also important to know what our prophet said, of course; that is, if we really believe she is a true prophet.

If you want a Bible study on the SDA doctrines, that would be great, but we would need to devote a separate thread to different teachings. Let me know which doctrines interest you the most or which you would really like to participate in.