You mean the Old Covenant?

Even EGW states that the Old Covenant was obey and live, disobey and die. If you are good God will fill your pockets with the green stuff, but if you are bad you must die a terrible death. The thing is most of the Jews never accepted the NC. Under it our motive is no longer egocentric.

Under the OC one's focus was totally self-centered - i.e., obey for a reward (heaven, wealth, etc) or out of fear (hell, death, etc). Such a religion, says EGW, is worthless.

Rob

Sure there are people who feel that way. But what I am saying is that this is not a product of the kind of self-love that comes from above. I am talking about agape love that 1 Cor. 13 describes as coming from God. Is it not possible to have this kind of love for oneself just as we can have this kind of love from God for Him and for our neighbors?





You are right that God did not create me with the evil kind of love (which is really lust). But doesn't God put the right kind of love in our hearts when we start walking with Christ? Doesn't it increase as we continue to grow in Christ and learn and put into practice more truth?

That is the kind of love I am talking about. I'm not talking about love that comes from below, from our lower natures or that is inspired by Satan. I'm speaking of the love that comes from God. It is described in 1 Cor. 13. Can't we have this love for ourselves as well as for other people and for God?

Yes, I completely agree that such a religion is worthless. And God never wanted them to believe this false religion.

Did God intend for the people of that time to believe a lie? Did God want them to believe that wealth would get them into the Kingdom of God?

As we've discussed before, the Old Covenant is not limited to a time but is something we can live under even today, if we believe the false teaching that heaven is to be gained through human works. We may live after the cross, yet in our minds we may be trying to earn God's favor through works of the law. That is the same as living under the Old Covenant.

Spiritually, people like Abraham and Enoch and David experienced the New Covenant even while living at a time when the Old Covenant was in force. God did not limit people to that old agreement. People limited themselves to it by own choices and by their refusal to walk in the full light of truth that God had revealed. I think that's the same as it is today.

1 Cor 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love [agape], I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love [agape], I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.


4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

There is no "self" in agape! Now look at Christ's life - one of "self-denial"!

When you say that God created us with a healthy self-love you are stating that God created us with a healthy iniquity. Again, the opposite of self-love is not self-hate. Self-hate is actually a product of self-love. The opposite of self-love is agape.

You see the Pharisees were full of self-love. For one the Bible states that everything they did (especially their law-keeping) was to be seen of men. They loved the attention...the applause.

Everything we do, outside Christ, is centered in self. Everything we do, outside Christ, is for our benefit in someway. This bent-to-self is Lucifer's invention. Those who would make it a Christian virtue are deceived...they do not understand the great controversy between God's love, which seeketh not her own, and Lucifer's self-love, which is self-seeking.

Rob

What was God's purpose in giving the Old Covenant seeing that God knew the people couldn't keep all the rules?

Answer: They didn't know! It was to break them of their pride that Christ entered the OC with them.

If I didn't know what I am talking about, I would be silent.

Gerry

"You shall LOVE [AGAPAO] your neighbor AS YOURSELF." JESUS.

Gerry

You are equating falling short of the glory of God with willful, deliberate sinning. If that is true, then what did Apostle John mean when he said: "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:6 ESV

Gerry

I would like for you to say more about what "self-love" mean to you, because it sounds to me that you are taking it to extremes. For instance, you say there is no "self" in agape.

Do you mean that you believe it is sin ever do anything for oneself?

Is it a sin, then, to be motived by a desire to improve oneself in any way?

A person could take the idea of the sin of "self" to such an extreme that it would be wrong to have a house or a car or any possessions at all.

Do you feel it is wrong for you personally to own property? Is the Holy Spirit convicting you that you need to sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor?

I can see how it's possible the Holy Spirit could convict people of this, but would be right to say that this is the intended meaning of not being selfish and of having agape love? What is the test of whether we have agape love?

To me, it's the same as saying, "You shall agape-love and value your neighbor as highly as you agape-love and value yourself. Do not think of yourself as better than your neighbor. Be as concerned for your neighbor's welfare as you are concerned for your own."

A good example of practicing this is the concern shown by the Good Samaritan. According to Jesus, this man had real agape love for his neighbor.

I don't see the parable of the Good Samaritan as teaching that you must cease putting value on yourself and thinking of your own welfare.

That is more like the view of Buddhists towards the "self." For them the "self" is all evil. They therefore believe in totally eliminating it as far as possible. Both Buddhist and Christian monks are motivated by that idea. Those are extreme views, but they are examples of what can result from misunderstanding the words of Christ regarding the relationship between poverty and love, and misapplying them.