You do make some good, valid points here, I think.

It's possible for you to spend the rest of your life resisting the temptations of Satan, claiming the promises of God, praying when your tempted instead of giving in, praying regularly, studying the Word and meditating on it, keeping busy doing the Lord's work, so that sin just doesn't fit into your schedule. And still you will not be free from the defilement, or taint, that sin has left on you life. Being defiled by sin and living in sin are two different things.

I have said this, but I guess not clearly enough.



Sin leaves us handicapped for life. But we just have to do our best with what we have left.

Also the more you give in, the harder it is to resist. The more you resist, the easier it is to resist in the future:

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

The biggest thing, I would say is do the work of the Lord.
Find a ministry.
Give bible studies.
Sell The Bible Story and Ellen White books house to house.
Invite lots of people to evangelistic seminars.
Create your own seminar and give it.
Hand out tracts.
Teach people sound doctrine on forums where people might be searching, like
Find people to witness to.
Find souls to win.
Find people to pray for.

There are alot of things you can do.

Matt. 9:37 ..The harvest truly [is] plenteous, but the labourers [are] few;

Keep doing these things and don't give yourself credit for it, but give the glory to God, and thank Him for the wonderful experience and privilege to serve Him. Continue going before the Lord is if you where a common sinner. Don't be proud. Remember you're in debt to God and you are really just doing your basic duty.

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

That's why Jesus bade the Rich Young Ruler to follow him. In serving the Lord, he would keep himself from temptation:

1 Cor. 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

Matt. 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil

If someone does say that they have arrived at perfection, well that would prove them perverse:

Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: [if I say], I [am] perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
9:21 [Though] I [were] perfect, [yet] would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.

But really perfect is a relative term. You could say perfect is constantly resisting temptation, but even if you got to the point where you are constantly resisting temptation, you still would not be perfect. Because you are defiled by the sins of you past. You are less efficient because of the handicap that your past sins will continue imposing on your life.

Thus, no one will ever be able to say they are perfect.

Deja Vu? I get a funny feeling that we're starting to go in circles...

Sin is something that you do.
Sin is not a principle.
Sin is not something you are born with.

"Original Sin" is a Roman Catholic doctrine. It says we are born with the guilt of Adam's sin. That's not true. We are sinners because we have sinned. No baby has had the opportunity to sin.

We are born with a sinful nature. That means we are powerless to resist the Devil by ourselves, without Christ.

Jesus was born with the same sinful nature, but He had Christ, because He was Christ. He was also set up to succeed, being filled with the Holy Ghost from His mother's womb, and having all the Scriptures provided for Him, and because God knew He would succeed, or He never would have created this world in the first place.

That's a mystery too powerful for us to comprehend at this time.

It does say:

Exo. 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

It says that in the Ten Commandments. That means 2 things:

1. The sons are likely to follow in the behavior of their fathers. This is true. But the inheritance is passed down through example, not through genes. They say "Parents that use drugs have kids that use drugs." But this is not genetic. Take infants from drug addicts and give them to good parents and they grow up to be good kids and never use drugs. Take infants from good parents and give them to drug addicts to raise, they will grow up to be drug addicts, unless Christ intervenes through human agencies.

2. Also children often suffer for the sins of their parents. Everyone in the world understands this. They keep saying that if we keep carelessly destroying our environment, our children will be the ones that will suffer for it.

I'm sure one might argue, saying:

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

There you go. That says it. We are born in sin.

Well it doesn't say we are born in sin. That's tradition. That would be a completely different statement. It says "in sin my mother conceived me". Who's sin? The mother's. She was in her sins when she conceived the child. A person can even commit adultery and have a child as a result of that sin.

Then she would definitely have passed down her sin by her example. She was a defiled influence on him growing up. An extreme case of this is seen in Nero:



This is a bit of self-justification on the part of the Psalmist. It's like: "Forgive me. My parents taught me to sin." Justifiable self-justification, if you ask me.

I gave 14 quotes of God creating evil.
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...defi#Post184333

I chose that wording because someone had said that Job repented so he must have sinned, but I gave many verses where the word for "repent" is used, and it looks like about 90% of the cases where that word is used, it's not talking about repenting from sin, and in many cases it's the Lord that repents. That was in this post where I gave 11 verses of God repenting:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...defi#Post183052

I guess I could list all of the verses where the word "na^cham", "repent", is used. You tell me how many times we see a person repenting of sin, like how the term is used in the New Testiment:

Job 42:6 Wherefore,I abhor myself, and repent ( -= na^cham =- ) in dust and ashes.
repent in the dust
"repent" = na^cham




Gen 5:29 And he calledhis name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) us concerning our work,and toil,of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Gen 6:6 And it repented ( -= na^cham =- ) the LORD that he had mademan on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroyman whom I have created from,the face of the earth; both manand beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth ( -= na^cham =- ) me that I have made them.

Gen 24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and tookRebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) after his mother's death.

Gen 27:42 Andthese words of Esau her elder son were told to Rebekah: and she sent and called Jacob her younger son, and said unto him, Behold, thy brother Esau, as touching thee, doth comfort himself, ( -= na^cham =- ) purposing to kill thee.

Gen 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) him; but he refused to be comforted; ( -= na^cham =- ) and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Gen 38:12 And in process of time,the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and Judah was comforted, ( -= na^cham =- ) and went up unto his sheepshearers,to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite.

Gen 50:21 Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) them, and spoke kindly,unto them.

Exo 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had letthe people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent ( -= na^cham =- ) when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from,the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath ,and repent ( -= na^cham =- ) of this evil against thy people.

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented ( -= na^cham =- ) of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: ( -= na^cham =- ) hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Deu 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself ( -= na^cham =- ) for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

Jdg 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand,of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented ( -= na^cham =- ) the LORD because of their groanings,by reason of them,that oppressed them and vexed them.

Jdg 21:6 And the children of Israel repented ( -= na^cham =- ) them for Benjamin their brother, and said, There is one tribe cut off from Israel,this day.

Jdg 21:15 And the people repented them ( -= na^cham =- ) for Benjamin, because that the LORD had made a breach in the tribes of Israel.

Rth 2:13 Then she said, Let me find favor in thy sight, my lord; for that thou hast comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) me, and for that thou hast spoken friendly,unto thine handmaid, though I be not like unto one of thine handmaidens.

1Sa 15:11 It repenteth me ( -= na^cham =- ) that I have set upSaul to be king: for he is turned back from following,me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: ( -= na^cham =- ) for he is not a man, that he should repent. ( -= na^cham =- )

1Sa 15:35 And Samuel came no more to seeSaul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented ( -= na^cham =- ) that he had made Saul king, ,over Israel.

2Sa 10:2 Then said David, I will show kindness unto Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father showed kindness unto me. And David sent to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) him by the hand of his servants for his father. And David's servants came into the land of the children of Ammon.

2Sa 10:3 And the princes of the children of Ammon said unto Hanun their lord, Thinkest thou that David doth honorthy father, that he hath sent comforters ( -= na^cham =- ) unto thee? hath not David rather senthis servants unto thee, to searchthe city, and to spy it out, and to overthrow it?

2Sa 12:24 And David comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) Bath-sheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bore a son, and he calledhis name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.

2Sa 13:39 And the soul of king David longed to go forth unto Absalom: for he was comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) concerning Amnon, seeing he was dead.

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him ( -= na^cham =- ) of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

1Ch 7:22 And Ephraim their father mourned many days, and his brethren came to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) him.

1Ch 19:2 And David said, I will show kindness unto Hanun the son of Nahash, because his father showed kindness to me. And David sent messengers to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) him concerning his father. So the servants of David came into the land of the children of Ammon to Hanun, to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) him.

1Ch 19:3 But the princes of the children of Ammon said to Hanun, Thinkest thou that David doth honorthy father, that he hath sent comforters ( -= na^cham =- ) unto thee? are not his servants come unto thee for to search, and to overthrow, and to spy out the land?

1Ch 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him ( -= na^cham =- ) of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Job 2:11 Now when Job's three friends heardof all this evil that was come upon him, they came every one from his own place;,Eliphaz the Temanite, and Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite: for they had made an appointment together to come to mourn with him and to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) him.

Job 7:13 When I say, My bed shall comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) me, my couch shall ease my complaint;

Job 16:2 I have heard many such things: miserable comforters ( -= na^cham =- ) are ye all.

Job 21:34 How then comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood?

Job 29:25 I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth ( -= na^cham =- ) the mourners.

Job 42:6 Wherefore,I abhor myself, and repent ( -= na^cham =- ) in dust and ashes.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of moneyand every one an earring of gold.

Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) me.

Psa 69:20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, ( -= na^cham =- ) but I found none.

Psa 71:21 Thou shalt increase my greatness, and comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) me on every side.

Psa 77:2 In the day of my trouble I sought the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my soul refused to be comforted. ( -= na^cham =- )

Psa 86:17 Show,me a token for good; that they which hate me may see it, and be ashamed: because thou, LORD, hast helped me, and comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) me.

Psa 90:13 Return, O LORD, how long?,and let it repent ( -= na^cham =- ) thee concerning thy servants.

Psa 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented ( -= na^cham =- ) according to the multitude of his mercies.

Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, ( -= na^cham =- ) Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Psa 119:52 I remembered thy judgments of oldO LORD; and have comforted myself. ( -= na^cham =- )

Psa 119:76 Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, ( -= na^cham =- ) according to thy word unto thy servant.

Psa 119:82 Mine eyes fail for thy word, saying, When wilt thou comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) me?

Psa 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself ( -= na^cham =- ) concerning his servants.

Ecc 4:1 So I returned, and consideredall the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; ( -= na^cham =- ) and on the side,of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter. ( -= na^cham =- )

Isa 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease ( -= na^cham =- ) me of mine adversariesand avenge me of mine enemies:,

Isa 12:1 And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst ( -= na^cham =- ) me.

Isa 22:4 Therefore,said I, Look away from me; I will weep bitterly, labor not to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) me, because of the spoiling of the daughter of my people.

Isa 40:1 Comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) ye, comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) ye my people, saith your God.

Isa 49:13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

Isa 51:3 For the LORD shall comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) Zion: he will comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

Isa 51:12 I, even I, am he that comforteth ( -= na^cham =- ) you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man,that shall die, and of the son,of man which shall be made as grass;

Isa 51:19 These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) thee?

Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

Isa 54:11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, ( -= na^cham =- ) behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colors, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

Isa 57:6 Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion; they, they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured a drink offering, thou hast offered a meat offering. Should I receive comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) in these?

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) all that mourn;

Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, ( -= na^cham =- ) so will I comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) you; and ye shall be comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) in Jerusalem.

Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above,be black: because,I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, ( -= na^cham =- ) neither will I turn back from it.

Jer 8:6 I hearkened and heard, but they spoke not aright: no man repented ( -= na^cham =- ) him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.

Jer 15:6 Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch outmy hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting. ( -= na^cham =- )

Jer 16:7 Neither shall men tear themselves for them in mourning, to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) them for the dead; neither shall men give them the cup of consolation to drink for their father or for their mother.

Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evilI will repent ( -= na^cham =- ) of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent ( -= na^cham =- ) of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Jer 20:16 And let that man be as the cities which the LORD overthrew, and repented ( -= na^cham =- ) not: and let him hear the cry in the morning, and the shouting at noontide;,

Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil waythat I may repent ( -= na^cham =- ) me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because,of the evil of their doings.

Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent ( -= na^cham =- ) him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Jer 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death?,did he not fearthe LORD, and besought, ,the LORD, and the LORD repented ( -= na^cham =- ) him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.

Jer 31:13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.,

Jer 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) for her children, because they were not.

Jer 31:19 Surely after that I was turned, I repented; ( -= na^cham =- ) and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Jer 42:10 If ye will still abide,in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent ( -= na^cham =- ) me of the evil that I have done unto you.

Lam 1:2 She weepeth sore,in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: among all,her lovers she hath none to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) her: all her friends have dealt treacherously with her, they are become her enemies.

Lam 1:9 Her filthiness is in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. ( -= na^cham =- ) O LORD, beholdmy affliction: for the enemy hath magnified himself.

Lam 1:16 For these things I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter ( -= na^cham =- ) that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed.

Lam 1:17 Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) her: the LORD hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them.

Lam 1:21 They have heard that I sigh: there is none to comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) me: all mine enemies have heard of my trouble; they are glad that thou hast done it: thou wilt bring the day that thou hast called, and they shall be like unto me.

Lam 2:13 What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?

Eze 5:13 Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: ( -= na^cham =- ) and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.

Eze 14:22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall seetheir way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

Eze 14:23 And they shall comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) you, when ye seetheir ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without causeall that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all,that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) unto them.

Eze 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; ( -= na^cham =- ) according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound,of his fall, when I cast him down,to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) in the nether parts of the earth.

Eze 32:31 Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted ( -= na^cham =- ) over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth ( -= na^cham =- ) him of the evil.

Joe 2:14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, ( -= na^cham =- ) and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

Amo 7:3 The LORD repented ( -= na^cham =- ) for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.

Amo 7:6 The LORD repented ( -= na^cham =- ) for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, ( -= na^cham =- ) and turn away from his fierce,anger, that we perish not?

Jon 3:10 And God sawtheir works, that they turned from their evil way;,and God repented ( -= na^cham =- ) of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jon 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore,I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest ( -= na^cham =- ) thee of the evil.

Nah 3:7 And it shall come to pass, that all they that look upon thee shall flee from thee, and say, Nineveh is laid waste: who will bemoan her? whence,shall I seek comforters ( -= na^cham =- ) for thee?

Zec 1:17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity,shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

Zec 8:14 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrathsaith the LORD of hosts, and I repented ( -= na^cham =- ) not:

Zec 10:2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort ( -= na^cham =- ) in vain: therefore,they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd.

I think you missed out on something! See the word "imperfect".....

This is heresy once again....

Sin is not only something you do. Coveting, for example, is not an outward act.



Romans 7:17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it [sinning outward], but sin which indwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not....21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good.... [NASB]

Sin is "in you" - that is, in your members.



Then when did you become a sinner, when you outwardly sinned? That means up until then you were Holy, but the Bible doesn't teach this heresy.

"So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted [past tense] condemnation to all men" [Romans 5:18]

Why? Because we are the multiplication of Adam's life. We are born condemned because we are no longer in the image and likeness of God.

Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh [not an outward act], indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature [not performance, not outward acts] children of wrath, even as the rest.

"What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?" [Job 15:14]

You see if your nature doesn't make you a sinner, in and of itself, then you should be allowed to take it to heaven. There would be no need of a glorified, sinless body at the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:41 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [remain dead], but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Even if, through Christ, you stopped sinning you still have a nature that disqualifies you for heaven. It, in and of itself, makes you a sinner. All sin is imperfection, and your nature is imperfect...it is sin!

Doesn't the Bible say that without Christ you can do nothing good? Well, that's why you have to been born from above. To be born from above you must be able to make an mental decision...you must exercise faith. Before that point what happened?

Your nature, which is based on the principle of iniquity (self-love), made your mind a slave to its selfish desires. You obeyed it's lusts. Your mind and nature were in perfect harmony! Because of this you naturally sinned outwardly.

Rob

I will admit, it sure is easy to give into something like that. It actually seems to make alot of sense. It's easier to say Jesus was born with a different kind of body than ours.



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/covet


Covet = verb
Never a noun
Coveting is something you do. Also if you allow yourself to look at a woman to lust after her, that's something that you choose to do.



Sin is an act. The principle is what causes the act, not the sin itself. In Romans 7 we see the flesh taking over, and forcing the victim to sin. So the person is not the one sinning, but the person's flesh. Like the spasm of a dead man. Like if my mouth takes the Lord's name in vain and I didn't want to say that. I would still repent, but I'm not the guilty party, the flesh did it by itself. I would then have to figure out how to make it stop doing that.


Again, sin is the outworking of a principle, not the principle itself. An outworking is an end result, like the product.



The only way sin is in you is if you sin. Covetousness is not in you before you covet, only after you covet. The attraction to covetousness might be passed to you from your society, which would probably cause you to just naturally covet if you couldn't think of reason not to.

If you've never stolen anything, then stealing is just not in you. No one is born guilty of stealing or of any sin.


When you sin inwardly or outwardly, that's when you become a sinner.



Luke 2:23 ...Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord..

1 Cor. 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

It looks like it is possible to be born holy. Even to be born full of the Holy Ghost:

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.



Condemnation doesn't mean sin. Back to the child. People in the world have miscarriages and abortions all the time. Those fetuses are not going to be in heaven. They are condemned. But they have never sinned, so they are not guilty of sin.

But if God's people lose a baby, the Lord will give that baby back to the mother in Heaven. But God is not going to make us take care of a billions of aborted fetuses. They will just be as though they where never conceived.

Condemnation means death, not necessarily guilt.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)



Children born to God fearing parents are not born condemned. If they die of crib death, they will be with their parents in heaven, for they are holy.



Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law...

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be grafted into their own olive tree?

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him...

Gal. 2:15 We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

What kind of person you are naturally, is determined by what kind of environment you where raised in and what kind of person you decide to be. Most people in this world sin naturally. It feels natural to sin. Naturally they are antagonistic toward the Gospel. The wrath of God abiding on them feels normal.

That doesn't mean you are born guilty of sin.

See, Jesus had our same nature physically:

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

But spiritually a divine nature.

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby, are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.



This doesn't really mean anything. Just hot air by Eliphaz the Temanite.

Matt. 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:



It looks like "sinless body" is a term that snuck in on us. The word "sinless" is not found in the Bible. "Sinless body" is not found in EGW writings.

1 Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Corruptible means subject to disease and aging. Mortal means subject to death. These terms don't have anything to do with sin.



I would say that the same process that gives you victory over sin through Christ also gives you a new nature. "...that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
"(2 Peter 1:4)


Your nature is not sin. Sin is breaking God's law. You have sin, meaning that in your life's record, you have broken God's law.

There's no need to make it complicated.


The Seventh Day Adventist church does not teach that we are born sinners, or that we are born with sin. That's why we don't Baptize babies. We consider the babies born to us as holy. But we dedicated them.

We truly are the brothers and sisters of Christ, for we are all born with the same flesh as He was born with. We are His flesh and blood.

If Jesus was not born with a body like ours, He could not have saved us:

Romans 8:3 God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I know that devil has perverted this statement, by saying "sin-in-the-flesh", like "jack-in-the-box". That's not the meaning that was intended. That's a demonic perversion from the spirit of Antichrist.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I've been wanting to share an experience I had just after I went through my first prophecy seminar and learned about the state of the dead. It was pathetic. A devil came and tried to act like he was my dead grandma, sitting in her old green chair. My faith was tested a bit. The opportunity was there to talk to my grandma. But it was so obvious that it was a devil. Why hadn't this happened before? Well I rebuked the spirit and it's face changed alot and it left.

It seems to me that a loyal angel must have tricked a devil to think I would fall for it, or to think it was a good opportunity somehow. I guess that was sort of a booster shot. It gave me an experience to strengthen my faith, so now I'm more confident to resist such a temptation if it ever comes in the future.

But this has been an even greater experience. Thanks to Robert, we have gained loads of hands-on experience in how to deal with a guy that's pushing false doctrine. It's like people practicing sword fighting with real swords. It's dangerous if you are not on full time high alert. Which is how you will have to be in the real war.

I just have to say, thank you Robert. You really have done a great job. Without you, we would not have had this experience.

What I would like to see is what you are like when you teach sound doctrine. How would you contend against false doctrine?

Maybe you have thought about coming around, maybe it's time to stop kicking against the goads. But you don't want to look like a chump. The Devil tells you no one will have respect for you.

But that assumes you would have to admit you where wrong. That's not necessarily so. Maybe you're just tired of subjects like this and you want to talk about other things for a change, like prophecy, politics, conspiracy theories, creation science, outreach, or whatever else.

I like posting here because people understand me. But I also like posting at http://www.christian-forum.net/ because there are alot of searching souls there. They have ridiculous interpretations of prophecy and their doctrines and beliefs are really funky.

You could sure teach them quite a bit. You could debate and contend and show them their errors in a very powerful way.

I got one guy there to join the SDA church. It's what he's been looking for. He decided to stop eating unclean things, but he can't convince anyone else in his church.
There are a few guys that where deceived into thinking the SDA church is a cult because of the hype from anti-SDA sites, and now they see things differently. One guy is really happy for the discovery of the great evangelists we have on videos and mp3.

1] If your nature is not sin then why can't you take it to heaven?

2] Ellen White calls our nature, sin:

We cannot say, "I am sinless," till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body. [3SM 355]

All may now obtain holy hearts [minds/desires], but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh [sinless natures]. The postle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my lesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). [2SM 32]

So again, having a sinful nature makes us sinners. We are defiled by sin....We are born in love with ourselves, screw the other guy. Everything we do, outside Christ, is for self. Satan's kingdom is built on this principle. It's called iniquity - our bent to self.



Christ did come in the flesh, but it wasn't His flesh - it was ours.

Jesus is God, first and foremost, but to save us from the curse of the law He had to assume the same fallen life that we received from Adam.

Hence, at the incarnation, God mysteriously blended the Deity of Christ with our corporate humanity after the fall. That humanity wasn't Christ's - it was ours.

That's why Paul says "you died to the law in the body of Christ". That's why he says, "our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with.....[Romans 7:4/6:6]

Notice, when Christ assumed our humanity (by assumed, I mean it wasn't His by native right) it immediately came under the curse. See Gal 4:4

But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, [why?] 5 in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

The minute Christ united His Deity to our corporate humanity, our humanity came under the curse (i.e., under the law). Why? Because our humanity had a nature that made it sin in itself!

Christ didn't have a sinful nature....Instead He assumed our life...and our life had a sinful nature. But Christ defeated sin in sinful man by saying no to principle of self-love all His life. Hence, He defeated sin in the flesh. Because of this He can legally present us in Himself as perfect.

Rob