Club Adventist
Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.
And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with
– even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.
Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message
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#182034 - 08/24/08 06:06 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the origin? [Re: Reddogs]
jasd Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1678
Loc: Oregon
>>1. The veneration of angels and dead saints<<

Venerate:
To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference.

Like, that’s wrong with exhibiting a deep regard for Gd’s heavenly, and sinless, messengers? And, per “dead” saints... Umm, isn’t that a bit relative and dependant upon how one has been Biblically taught?

Perhaps, one meant to take issue with the ‘adoration’ of Saint Mary; but, is that wrong? Nah, adoration is simply loving admiration.

>>2. The Mass<<

That’s, basically, the Catholic version of ‘communion’, yes? I think all .orgs show some “error” re that sacrament.

>>3. The veneration of Mary and praying to her<<

Isn’t she the mother of Gd? So, for that reason, we should show no deep regard, admiration, nor respect for/to her?

>>4. The doctine of Purgatory<,

Compare

KJV Rom 10:9 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
YLT Rom 10:9 that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved,

with

KJV Phil 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
YLT Phil 2:11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

or the more affirmatively English

NAS Phil 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
ISV Phil 2:11 Then every tongue in one accord, will say that Jesus the Messiah is Lord, while God the Father praising.

Question: by any other name, where does the soul/spirit dwell until such time as “every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord” and be saved...?

Jesus Christ, in the Beatitude chapter (5) of the Book of Matthew advises and warns...

Matt 5:25 ... and thou be cast into prison.
Matt 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

against running afoul of the law.

One is mindful that Jesus Christ taught, at times, in allusive or obscure manner – and wonders what “prison” He references in the above texts – or, those following...

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Pet 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

>>5. The transference of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the first day of the week<<

They sanctified the NT Sabbath with their celebration of the “first day of the week” as a day set aside unto the Lord Gd. I suppose there might be ‘inferred’ a transference; however, it was Gd through His prophets Hosea and Jeremiah who caused the OT Sabbath to cease, to be forgotten – to be hidden away until such time as Gd Himself will once again reveal it – during the millennial Succoth.

>>6. Latin being the official language of prayer and worship<<

Though it may appear arbitrary – what is wrong with using Latin, song, the groaning of Spirit, or other – as language in worship? It would be the preference of whichever individual or group most immediately concerned.

Would you have the same objection to ‘Hebrew’ being used in Synagogues?

>>7. The establishment of the position of Pope<<

It may be that the Book of Revelation takes issue with a Nicolatanes’, or hierarchical system, of church organization; but, one must concede that all .orgs indulge – with the difference being one only of terminology and degree.

>>8. Worship or veneration of relics, images, statues, or idols<<

...or the practice of iconolatry? Yes, one agrees that it is wrong to worship, per se, “relics, images, and such”; then again, do we not ‘worthship’ photos of our loved ones? even to carrying them around in wallets and purses? that we might look upon them at singular moments of veneration and adoration?

And what of OT ‘worthship’ re the proper placement of ancestor’s bones – and the ‘powers’ inherent them?

What of the visual reminders that were commanded to be embroidered upon the shawls of the COI?

>>9. Canonization of dead saints<<

Yes, for the church to appropriate to themselves the ‘authority’ to decide who is or is not beatified, canonized, or other such – is supremely wrong-headed. The NT believer has no need for canonization – he or she being, already, a saint.

>>10. Celibacy of the clergy (though I understand this may have changed)<<

They took a page from St Paul:

1 Cor 7:1 ... [It is] good for a man not to touch a woman.
1 Cor 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
1 Cor 7:8 ... It is good for them if they abide even as I.

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#182054 - 08/24/08 11:03 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: jasd]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10402
Loc: CA
Quote:
>>1. The veneration of angels and dead saints<<

Venerate:
To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference.

Like, that’s wrong with exhibiting a deep regard for Gd’s heavenly, and sinless, messengers? And, per “dead” saints... Umm, isn’t that a bit relative and dependant upon how one has been Biblically taught?

Perhaps, one meant to take issue with the ‘adoration’ of Saint Mary; but, is that wrong? Nah, adoration is simply loving admiration.


It's more than a deep regard for the dead saints, including Mary. They pray to her and to the saints in order to ask them to appeal to Christ. Of course, Mary and the saints are dead and unconscious, unable to help them.

People should be taught to pray only to God, as the New Testament teaches, and not to the dead. Christ needs no one to appeal to Him to answer our prayers, because He Himself loves to answer them.


_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#182055 - 08/24/08 11:15 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: jasd]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10402
Loc: CA
Quote:
>>2. The Mass<<

That’s, basically, the Catholic version of ‘communion’, yes? I think all .orgs show some “error” re that sacrament.


The Catholic Church teaches that at the mass, the priest is able to offer Christ in an unbloody sacrifice. They believe the priest is able to create the body and blood of Jesus Christ. For them this is not symbol but reality.

Quote:
>>3. The veneration of Mary and praying to her<<

Isn’t she the mother of Gd? So, for that reason, we should show no deep regard, admiration, nor respect for/to her?


No, Mary is not the mother of God. Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, the man. She is not the mother of the divine nature of Christ. He had/ has both a divine and human nature. His human nature began with his conception in Mary's womb. Therefore it is perfectly correct to say Mary was Jesus' mother. But Eternal God Himself has no mother. The book of Luke speaks of Mary as the "mother of [Elizabeth's] Lord," but that is a reference to Jesus after His conception as a human and not to the pre-incarnate Christ.

There is nothing wrong with showing respect and high regard for Mary. But that does not include praying to her or in any way worshipping her. Her image should not be prayed to, and people should not be made to feel that Mary is alive and able to hear them or answer their prayers, nor should they be taught to burn candles to her for their loved ones in purgatory. None of this is in harmony with the Bible's teachings.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#182084 - 08/24/08 08:50 PM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: John317]
melvin mccarty Online   content


Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 640
Loc: B,C.
Scripture does mention certain humans who are now "in Heaven" but nowhere does it say that there may not be others who are not mentioned. We should not catagorically state that there can not be others who are presently there. mel

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#182094 - 08/24/08 11:53 PM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: melvin mccarty]
Fausto Offline


Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 135
Loc: South Africa
Let us consider these:

Originally Posted By: worlds last chance website
What was the character of Zacharias, and Elizabeth?

"And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." Luke 1:6.

What was obligatory under the old covenant besides the ten commandments?
"Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary." Heb. 9:1.

In what did these ordinances consist?
"Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." Heb. 9:10.

What did these prefigure?
"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually, make the comers thereunto perfect." Heb. 10:1.

Why was it necessary for them to offer these sacrifices?
"And if anyone of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned." Lev. 4:27, 28.

Could these offerings take away their sins?
"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." Heb. 10:4.

To what did they look forward?
"Wherefore, when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldst not, but a body hast thou prepared Me." Heb. 10:5.

Where were the ten commandments written under the old covenant?
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to Me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them." Ex. 24:12.

What was to be done with these commandments when the new covenant came in force?
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts." Jer. 31:33 (Heb. 8:8-10).

Having God's commandments in the heart, should we also keep Christ and His sufferings in mind?
"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures." 1 Cor. 15:2, 3.

Is it enough simply to believe in the death of Christ?
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him." 1 Thess. 4:14.

By what act do we commemorate the resurrection of Christ?
"Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead." Col. 2:12.

But what should always precede baptism?
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." Acts 2:38.

Toward whom must repentance be exercised?
"And have taught you publicly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:20, 21.

Then by being baptized, what does one signify to the world?
"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ." Gal. 3:27.

How is the death of Christ to be commemorated?
"For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till He come." 1 Cor. 11:26.

When and by whom was this ordinance instituted?
"The Lord Jesus, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread; and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and said, Take, eat; this is My body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of Me." 1 Cor. 11:23, 24.

What is signified by the cup?
"After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in My blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me." 1 Cor. 11:25.

What was done by Christ and the disciples after partaking of the communion?
"And when they had sung a hymn, they went out into the Mount of Olives." Matt. 26:30.

If one refuses to obey God, can he be profited by partaking of the communion?
"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." 1 Cor. 11:27.


These teachings on the Lord's supper are biblical for starters,should give one a view of what is right and what is wrong regarding this subject.


Edited by Fausto (08/25/08 02:29 AM)

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#182100 - 08/25/08 01:31 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: John317]
jasd Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1678
Loc: Oregon

Quote:
Quote:jasd

Perhaps, one meant to take issue with the ‘adoration’ of Saint Mary; but, is that wrong? Nah, adoration is simply loving admiration.


>>It's more than a deep regard for the dead saints, including Mary. They pray to her and to the saints in order to ask them to appeal to Christ.<<

Are not the 24 elders of Revelation 5:8 redeemed from the earth? Yet, St John portrays them before Jesus Christ the Lamb [seemingly presenting Him] with the “prayers of saints”. One assumes those “prayers” are of those presently on earth...

>>Of course, Mary and the saints are dead and unconscious, unable to help them.<<

What of the 24 elders? Are they ‘dead’? What of Moses? Is he ‘dead’? Others?

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: v26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Can Psalms 45:9

“Kings' daughters [were] among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.”

with verse 6 “Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.”

its antecedent – be parsed to portray a “Queen of heaven”; that is, the ‘standing’ mother of the sitting Regent? Or, is one doctrinally compelled to re-interpret the Elohim Gd of verse 6?

>>People should be taught to pray only to God, as the New Testament teaches,<< and not to the dead.<<

Agreed, as far as it goes. It is my thinking that one need only approach Gd, that is, Elohim.

>>...and not to the dead.<<

But, that’s just it! Are the saints ‘dead’ as in dodo ‘dead’?

>>Christ needs no one to appeal to Him to answer our prayers, because He Himself loves to answer them.<<

So, Revelation 5:8 – what’s THAT?

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#182101 - 08/25/08 01:37 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: John317]
jasd Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1678
Loc: Oregon
Quote:
Quote:jasd

>>2. The Mass<<

That’s, basically, the Catholic version of ‘communion’, yes? I think all .orgs show some “error” re that sacrament.


>>The Catholic Church teaches that at the mass, the priest is able to offer Christ in an unbloody sacrifice.<<

Not sure where you’re coming from re “unbloody sacrifice”. I hope that you are not one of those who assert a simile between the efficacy of the Catholic Mass to Cain’s sacrifice of the fields?

Good grief.

Did not Jesus Christ, in the communion of the Lord’s Supper, leave us the example. No bloodiness there. Is there bloodiness in your .Org’s communion services?

Bear in mind also, that St Paul adjures

1 Cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

My read of the text encourages one to partake in the sacrament of the communion as often as the heart leads, which would be, imho, more than 2, 3, or even 4 times a year.

>>They believe the priest is able to create the body and blood of Jesus Christ. For them this is not symbol but reality.<<

Transubstantiation, eh? What if the RCCs called it “real Presence”, or “receptionism”, or “virtualism” – as other .orgs do? Okay, mebbe, a compromise or ‘sanitization’ is in order; like, consubstantiation?

Jn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
Jn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Jn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Should those who believe that the passage above was offered as more than figurative language – likewise, “walk no more with Jesus Christ” – or stand condemned vis-à-vis Protestor’s Theological constructs?

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#182102 - 08/25/08 02:09 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: melvin mccarty]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10402
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty
Scripture does mention certain humans who are now "in Heaven" but nowhere does it say that there may not be others who are not mentioned. We should not catagorically state that there can not be others who are presently there. mel


If the Bible doesn't tell us that certain individuals have been resurrected and are in heaven, we're not to believe tradition that puts them there for the purpose of praying to them.

Are you referring to Mary?

Do you agree or disagree with the Catholic Church in its dogma as described below?

Quote:
The Roman Catholic Church teaches as Dogma , that the Virgin Mary, "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." This means that Mary was transported into Heaven with her body and soul united. The feast day recognizing Mary's passage into Heaven is celebrated as The Solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Roman Catholics. This doctrine was dogmatically and infallibly defined by Pope Pius XII on 1 November 1950 in his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus. The Assumption of Mary into heaven is also taught by the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Oriental and Coptic Orthodox Churches, where it is known as the Dormition of the Theotokos. In those denominations that observe it, the Assumption is commonly celebrated on August 15, a Holy Day of Obligation in Roman Catholicism.

In his August 15, 2004 homily given at Lourdes, Pope John Paul II quoted John 14:3 from the Bible as a scriptural basis for understanding the dogma of the Assumption of Mary, where Christ, in his Last Supper discourses, explained that "When I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am, there you may be also". According to Catholic theology, Mary is the pledge of the fulfillment of Christ's promise. However, many theologians disagree with this interpretation of Scripture, and believe that Christ was speaking about his preparation of Calvary and the crucifixion for the remission of sins.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#182103 - 08/25/08 02:10 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: Fausto]
jasd Offline


Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1678
Loc: Oregon

Quote:
If one refuses to obey God, can he be profited by partaking of the communion?
"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." 1 Cor. 11:27.


>>These teachings on the Lord's supper are biblical for starters,should give one a view of what is right and whta is wrong regarding this subject.<<

The matter, as presented in this post, seems to turn upon “unworthily”, or, in the Greek anaxious. Let’s not forget that “unworthily” is an adverb addressing the verb, or act of taking communion – and not upon the condition of the person – or his doctrinal beliefs.

The act of taking communion is not about the person’s belief system, as the act would then center upon him or her – rather than upon Jesus Christ.

The focus ought to lie with and remain upon Jesus Christ.

Remember, that St Paul wrote: “For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.” (1 Cor 11:26)

The key words are “Remember” and the “Lord’s death”.

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#182104 - 08/25/08 02:16 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: jasd]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10402
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: jasd
Quote:
Quote:jasd

>>2. The Mass<<

That’s, basically, the Catholic version of ‘communion’, yes? I think all .orgs show some “error” re that sacrament.


>>The Catholic Church teaches that at the mass, the priest is able to offer Christ in an unbloody sacrifice.<<

Not sure where you’re coming from re “unbloody sacrifice”. I hope that you are not one of those who assert a simile between the efficacy of the Catholic Mass to Cain’s sacrifice of the fields?

Good grief.

Did not Jesus Christ, in the communion of the Lord’s Supper, leave us the example. No bloodiness there. Is there bloodiness in your .Org’s communion services?


If you study Roman Catholic catechisms, you will see that they teach that the Mass is a true sacrifice, and describe it as an "unbloody sacrifice."

The following are official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church:



Quote:
The Unbloody Sacrifice of the Mass

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Church's greatest prayer. In it, Jesus Christ becomes present and offers Himself in love to the Father as He did on the Cross almost 2,000 years ago.

Although the Sacrifice of the Mass and Jesus' Sacrifice on Calvary are the SAME, there are important DIFFERENCES in these two actions of Christ. On the Cross, Our Lord offered Himself in a BLOODY MANNER; whereas, in the Holy Mass, He offers Himself in an UNBLOODY MANNER. This in no way implies that Jesus' Blood is no longer present in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It simply means that Jesus chooses to act in a different way at Mass than He did on the Cross.

Source: Catholic Truth for Youth, by Father Robert J. Fox, Published by Ave Maria Institute, Copyright 1978, Washington, N.J. 07882, ISBN: 09265429, Lesson 12, The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, page 121.

From section #9 of John Paul II's letter Dominicae Cenae:

All who participate with faith in the Eucharist become aware that it is a "sacrifice," that is to say, a "consecrated Offering." For the bread and wine presented at the altar and accompanied by the devotion and the spiritual sacrifices of the participants are finally consecrated, so as to become truly, really and substantially Christ's own body that is given up and His blood that is shed. Thus, by virtue of the consecration, the species of bread and wine re-present (50) in a sacramental, unbloody manner the bloody propitiatory sacrifice offered by Him on the cross to His Father for the salvation of the world.

Source: Pope John Paul II, letter Dominicae Cenae - On the Mystery and Worship of the Eucharist, February 24, 1980.

The book of Hebrews, chapters 7, 9 and 10, cited above, make it quite clear that Christ only offered Himself as a sacrifice once, and that sacrifice was finished at the cross. He need not offer Himself in sacrifice on a daily basis, yet in absolute contradiction to scripture, this is exactly what Catholic Truth for Youth and John Paul II, cited above, are claiming happens at the Catholic Mass.

From the new Vatican's Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1365 Because it is a memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The Sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood." [185] In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." [186]

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies the fruit:

[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish one for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit. [187]

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice. "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner." [188]

185 Lk 22:19-20.
186 Mt 26:28
187 Council of Trent (1562): DS 1740; cf. 1 Cor 11:23; Heb 7:24,27.
188 Council of Trent (1562): DS 1743; cf. Heb 9:14,27.




_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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