What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the origin?

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#182107 - 08/25/08 02:37 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: John317]
Fausto Registered: 06/24/08 Posts: 135 Loc: South Africa	Originally Posted By: jasd But, that’s just it! Are the saints ‘dead’ as in dodo ‘dead’? We know not which are not as it is not mentioned anywhere, however we know of 3 that are definitelly there, Moses, Elijah and Enoch. Somehow it makes me wonder why the RCC did not canonize any of these, I never heard St. Moses, St. Elijah or St. Enoch, funny hey? Prehaps it is because these are true saints and are really mentioned as being in heaven for sure! But do not fit into their esoteric religion? Let's just agree that IHS, stands for Iris, Hosiris and Seth, now isn't that funny? So they esoteric thinking is father, mother, son? Wow!
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#182116 - 08/25/08 03:42 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: John317]
jasd Registered: 02/16/05 Posts: 1678 Loc: Oregon	Quote: Quote:jasd >>3. The veneration of Mary and praying to her<< Isn’t she the mother of Gd? So, for that reason, we should show no deep regard, admiration, nor respect for/to her? >>No, Mary is not the mother of God. Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ, the man.<< But of course St Mary is the mother of Gd. It is indisputable, except by resort to questionable semantics. However one might define Jesus Christ, He is Gd; ipso facto – St Mary, mother of Gd. >>She is not the mother of the divine nature of Christ.<< Nor is she the mother of the other corporate aspects of Elohim; nevertheless, she is the mother of Jesus Christ, Gd. >>He had/ has both a divine and human nature. His human nature began with his conception in Mary's womb. Therefore it is perfectly correct to say Mary was Jesus' mother. But Eternal God Himself has no mother.<< Indeed, be that as it may, yet St Mary was and is – mother of Gd; that is, Jesus Christ, Gd. Syllogistic. >>There is nothing wrong with showing respect and high regard for Mary. But that does not include praying to her or in any way worshipping her.<< Though I agree with your statement re Biblical worship of any but Gd, I bear in mind - that the RCCs say their regard for St Mary is one of veneration. It is probable that they are the best qualified to define their own terminology. I’ve seen upon these very boards requests for prayer from one and all. Those requesting prayer obviously expect that Gd will hear and bless. How much more might one expect from the intercession of Jesus Christ’s mother? >>Her image should not be prayed to,<< I’m in agreement upon this point. >>...and people should not be made to feel that Mary is alive<< Yet, people should be made to believe that Moses is in heaven? translated by tradition, yet, not St Mary, of whom Jesus Christ said, "whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"? Or, mebbe, we simply do not accept that St Mary, mother of Gd, believed in her Son...? >>...and able to hear them...<< Yet, angels and elders, redeemed from earth, can? >>...or answer their prayers,<< Disabuse me, but it is my understanding that even the RCCs believe it is Gd who answers prayers; St Mary intercedes through her Son. >>nor should they be taught to burn candles to her for their loved ones in purgatory.<< Candles? equivalently, the ABC bookstore for generating income? “Purgatory”? By any other name, the same? Howabout ‘prison’? >>None of this is in harmony with the Bible's teachings.<< Umm, John317, is vegetarianism a Biblical teaching? Matter of fact, it has origins in paganism... Anyway, St Paul said that he became all things to all men that by doing so he might save a few. I suppose that the RCC .org took a page from St Paul and Holy Writ.
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#182129 - 08/25/08 04:18 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: John317]
melvin mccarty Registered: 05/18/02 Posts: 640 Loc: B,C.	Are you prepared to catagorically deny that Jesus' mother Mary is in heaven? Where is your proof text? mel
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#182139 - 08/25/08 04:56 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: melvin mccarty]
Fausto Registered: 06/24/08 Posts: 135 Loc: South Africa	Originally Posted By: mel Are you prepared to catagorically deny that Jesus' mother Mary is in heaven? Where is your proof text? mel I'll step to the plate. Yes, we can categorically deny that, she ain't there, mate! Originally Posted By: Can The Dead Speak To Us? World's last chance The Soul 8. What is a "soul"? "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7. Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls. 9. Do souls die? "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Revelation 16:3. Answer: According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death. NOTE: In the Bible, the dead are never represented as being capable of a conscious existence apart from the body. Even the animals became living souls when the breath of life entered their bodies at creation. In Genesis 1:30, we read: "To every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life." The marginal rendering of "life" is "a living soul." In Revelation 16:3, the animals of the sea are called living souls (nephesh chaiyah). This same expression is used in Genesis 1:20-21, 24, in referring to the animals as "the moving creature that hath life," "every living creature," and "the living creature." Thus animals are called "living souls," or nephesh chaiyah. This is the identical expression used in Genesis 2:7, when man became a 'living soul" (nephesh chaiyah). At death, this breath leaves man. 10. Do the dead retain any of the mental faculties after they die? A. They have knowledge of God. "In death there is no remembrance of Thee." Psalm 6:5. B. They cannot worship God. “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.” Psalm 115:17. C. They have no emotions. “Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.” Ecclesiastes 9:6. D. The dead are not capable of pleasure of pain. “Neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.” Ecclesiastes 9:5. “There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.” Job 3:17. E.They have no knowledge of anything. “The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything.” Ecclesiastes 9:5. F.They have no thoughts. “His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” Psalm 146:4. The mental faculties did not exist before God breathed life into man, and they stop entirely when the man dies. When the electric current is turned off, the bulb is there, but light is gone. Answer: No. NOTE-What, then, is death? The answer of the Bible is simple and explicit. It is the opposite of life. It is a return to what man was before God breathed into him the breath of life. Death is the withdrawal of life and all that it implies. Life implies thought and consciousness. In death there is neither thought nor consciousness. Life suggests activity. Death means the cessation of activity. In death all connection with life is broken off. 11. What else is absent from the abode of the dead? A. No light. “A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.” Job 10:22. “Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death.” Job 10:21. B. No sound. “The dead... go down into silence.” Psalm 115:17. 12. Can the dead communicate with the living? "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:21. Answer: God condemns attempts to communicate with the dead. Read Deuteronomy 18:9-12. Attempts to communicate with the dead are considered by God as an "abomination." According to Bible prophecy, spiritism is to have a great revival in these last days, but it is not of God (1 Timothy 4:1). 13. What terms are used to indicate that death is a temporary condition? In the Bible, death is referred to as "sleep" fifty-four times illustrating that the dead have no consciousness. A. The dead only fall asleep. “He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.” Acts 7:60. “These things said He: and after that He said unto them, Our friend Lazareth sleeps.” John 11:11. B. They rest. “There the weary be at rest. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.” Job 3:17, 18. 14. Where is the sleeping chamber of the dead? “Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.” Job 21:32. “If I wait, the grave is mine house.” Job 17:13. Answer: The grave. 15. Is there any separation between the righteous and the wicked in the sleep of death? “All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.” Ecclesiastes 3:20. Answer: No. 16. What distinction, however, is retained in the mind of God between the righteous and the wicked? “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord.” Revelation 14:13. “If we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.” 1 Thessalonians 4:14. and then...let's see who actually is in Heaven that we can substantiate from the bible: Originally Posted By: KJVR Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. From the above we can see that Enoch went to heaven, so he was the first human. Originally Posted By: KJVR Mat 17:2 - 5 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. We could find some more to show how each one is taken up, but it will be unecessary. There is not one verse though saying that Mary is in heaven, not one, so now I ask you, where is your proof text that she is? Its not there right? So how can we assume anything that is not in the Holy Writ? It is a lie!
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#182143 - 08/25/08 05:04 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: Fausto]
Fausto Registered: 06/24/08 Posts: 135 Loc: South Africa	Originally Posted By: jasd Like, that’s wrong with exhibiting a deep regard for Gd’s heavenly, and sinless, messengers? And, per “dead” saints... Umm, isn’t that a bit relative and dependant upon how one has been Biblically taught? God's messengers are the prophets, Mary did not fit into that category, now I've just show from scripture that she cannot be in heaven. Originally Posted By: jasd Perhaps, one meant to take issue with the ‘adoration’ of Saint Mary; but, is that wrong? Nah, adoration is simply loving admiration. Adoration is forbidden as explained below, admiration is different, but we all admire her, for being chosen of God to bear our saviour! That, however, does not make her into a goddess, now does it? Originally Posted By: KJVR Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Exo 20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Have you noticed some of the catholic paintings, she bears the marks of the nails in her hands, how on earth? Is she supposed to replace Christ?
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#182145 - 08/25/08 05:11 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: melvin mccarty]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10399 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty Are you prepared to catagorically deny that Jesus' mother Mary is in heaven? Where is your proof text? mel We don't need a proof text showing someone is NOT in heaven. What we need is a text saying someone IS in heaven. If it was a matter of needing a text that says someone is NOT in heaven, I guess we could pretty well say that almost everyone is there, couldn't we? But that is not the way we determine who is in heaven at this time. Or is that how you do it? If the Bible doesn't say she is in heaven, then we have no reason to believe that she is. Are you prepared to say that you know she is in heaven? (Perhaps you believe that all the dead go immediately to heaven.) If someone tells you that Peter is in heaven, are you also prepared to believe it, simply because the Bible does not say he is not there? What if I tell you that my mother is there? Are you prepared to state categorically that my mother is not there? Where is the text that says my mother is not there? If the argument is good for Mary or any other dead person, why not for my mother or for anyone else, including the popes or maybe even Hitler? Fortunately that is not how we decide that someone is in heaven. My wife used to pay money to priests to pray that her mother would be released from Purgatory into heaven. Why? Because she was not sure if she was in heaven or not. And the priests could not tell her for sure. So she worried. My wife knows what the Bible teaches about death now, so she no longer worries about her mother. She knows her mother is sleeping in the grave. "The dead know nothing." Eccl. 9: 5.
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#182150 - 08/25/08 06:47 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: Fausto]
jasd Registered: 02/16/05 Posts: 1678 Loc: Oregon	Quote: Quote:jasd But, that’s just it! Are the saints ‘dead’ as in dodo ‘dead’? >>We know not which are not as it is not mentioned anywhere,<< I suppose you missed my reference of Revelation 5:8. That does not yet recourse to other texts in Revelations that reference sentient saints – being already, in heaven. >>...however we know of 3 that are definitelly there, Moses, Elijah and Enoch.<< [ed.jasd] Respectfully, that would be error, imho. >>Somehow it makes me wonder why the RCC did not canonize any of these, I never heard St. Moses, St. Elijah or St. Enoch, funny hey?<< They probably left that up to jasd – as Holy Writ already canonized the saints. >>Prehaps it is because these are true saints and are really mentioned as being in heaven for sure!<< Holy Writ called the NT Xtians – saints. I wonder at the hubris of many Protesting .orgs, which steadfastly refuse, or otherwise, unknowingly, do not follow Writ upon this matter. Though the RCCs are somewhat confused upon the issue – at least they go farther in expositing text re saints – then do the Protestors. >>But do not fit into their esoteric religion?<< Given, that Alexander Hislop, et al, is/are reputed to have unveiled “the secrets” of the Universal Church, it is laid rather bare and esotericism would hardly define that which is not hidden, yes? One might have to search farther afield, or redefine dogma, to identify the “Mystery woman”, yes? >>Let's just agree that IHS, stands for Iris, Hosiris and Seth, now isn't that funny? So they esoteric thinking is father, mother, son? Wow!<< The early Xtian symbol IHS really identifies with “Iris, Hosiris, Seth”? Okay, some hooplaphile said this, yes? So, my use of the chi X as in Xtian – is more esoterica than it is sigla? Actually, there are more than several meanings ascribed to the monogram IHS; one being, that it is an abbreviation for the Christ name IHESUS. That said, the histories of man are replete with the “father, mother, son” motif. Should I seem to ramble, it is because I am rambling - I am watching the Olympic ceremonies. Never could multi-task.
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#182154 - 08/25/08 07:07 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: John317]
melvin mccarty Registered: 05/18/02 Posts: 640 Loc: B,C.	((((((( yawn )))))... mel
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#182157 - 08/25/08 08:10 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: Fausto]
jasd Registered: 02/16/05 Posts: 1678 Loc: Oregon	>>...and then...let's see who actually is in Heaven that we can substantiate from the bible:<< Quote: Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. >>From the above we can see that Enoch went to heaven, so he was the first human.<< [ed.jasd] Not so, Fausto. Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. It may be that he was translated, but he did not go to the third heaven or the heaven of heavens. It may be that he did go to other worlds... Quote: Mat 17:2 - 5 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. Matt 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Jesus defines the ‘transfiguration’ as a vision. Granted, this ‘vision’ carries the sense of the spectacle; however, one might select his or her own vision of spectacle - it yet remains a vision. Anyway, bear in mind the previous words of Jesus Christ in John 3:13. >>We could find some more to show how each one is taken up, but it will be unecessary.<< Per “taken up”: several years after Elijah was ‘taken up’ 2 Chronicles 21:12-15 records Elijah as writing a letter to King Jehoram. Bear in mind John 3:13. >>There is not one verse though saying that Mary is in heaven, not one, so now I ask you, where is your proof text that she is?<< So, what is it!? the words of Jesus Christ as recorded in John 11:26 “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” is given for naught? You seem to say that "Thou believest not this.” Yet, though contraindicated by the very words of Jesus Christ in John 3:13 – the .Org persists in purporting that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses, all – were in heaven and even now are - though, sans the mother of Jesus Christ, Gd. And what of the elders of Revelation 5:8? Maybe, one of those elders is, in fact, St Mary, yes? [/kidding] >>Its not there right? So how can we assume anything that is not in the Holy Writ? It is a lie!<< Speaking of lies: John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. Enoch, Elijah, and Moses – all lived before Jesus Christ. It is only now - post crucifixion, that we are permitted to expositorily proffer by construction - that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses may be or are in heaven. However, to do so, one is compelled to admit as much for St Mary – else, one engages in deceptive exegesis.
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#182158 - 08/25/08 09:13 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: jasd]
Fausto Registered: 06/24/08 Posts: 135 Loc: South Africa	Quote: You seem to say that you “Believest not thou this.” Of course I believe it, but you know there are conditions and one can never "go to town" based on one single verse it is a weak argument! Quote: Revelation 5:8? Maybe, one of those elders is St Mary, yes? I looked at it but seriously (I'm glad you joking)! We don't knwo who they are!
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