What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the origin?

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#182829 - 09/01/08 07:42 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: Fausto]
jasd Registered: 02/16/05 Posts: 1678 Loc: Oregon	>>It is obvious that you do not agree with the type-antetype way of analysing the bible...<< I think you must be referring to my use of ARCHETYPE. It was a purposeful use of it on my part, as it is my assertion that an improper interpretation re Enoch, Elijah, and Moses defines them as ARCHETYPES – rather than antitypes vis-à-vis Jesus Christ. >>...whereby we can see for example the earthly sanctuary representing exactly the one in heaven and therefore also the investigative judgement by Christ!<< Exactly? >>The bible is full of these, for instance within the sanctuary the service and many of the furnishings pointed to Christ (the lamp, the bread, the sacrificed lamb, the priest).<< How do the twelve loaves represent Christ? >>There are many other examples where Christ is portrayed in other people too, examples here are Joseph, Joshua, Isaac (at the altar at the time Abraham was ready to slay him, then God arranged a substitute) and a few others.<< I know that one may draw analogies but – I think it is not so easy to establish them as antitypes. >>Makes a lot of sense! In my opinion!<< Nothing wrong with that.
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#182830 - 09/01/08 07:49 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: John317]
jasd Registered: 02/16/05 Posts: 1678 Loc: Oregon	>>Do you believe that the events recorded in Exodus 3, of God's appearing to Moses at the burning bush, were real or merely a vision in Moses' head?<< I tend to validate the KJV in using, in this instance, the term ‘sight’ – as opposed to ‘vision’. >>There is excellent reason to believe this is also its meaning in Matt. 17: 9,<< Upon this point I disagree. To hold to that exposition of Writ introduces dissonance... >>...and that is how virtually all Bible commentators and translators understand it.<< I have a very high opinion of those who translated the KJV – and find myself in agreement with them re Matthew 17:9.
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#182831 - 09/01/08 07:58 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: Fausto]
jasd Registered: 02/16/05 Posts: 1678 Loc: Oregon	>>Going back to Jesus being the archangel Michael.<< Does Writ, anywhere, tell us that Michael is Jesus Christ? I read all the references proffered re "Angel of the Lord" and though I found it interesting - I failed to find anything where I would not have to rely upon a construction to deduce a Michael-is-Jesus Christ motif.
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#183038 - 09/02/08 08:28 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: jasd]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10402 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: jasd Quote: Quote: Quote:John317 >>Everyone dies the first death, but it is viewed as an unconcious sleep in the grave, because people will be awakened from this sleep.<< Quote:jasd 1 Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. The text employs the present tense/active voice; that is, you possess eternal life [now]. It does not state, as so many .orgs posit – that ‘eternal life’ is an effervescing pie-in-the-sky-bye-and-bye expectation One can only take away from the words of the Beloved Apostle, the recurring idea of the animate vitality/constituent man – that is, the spirit/soul, as continuing; somewhat, perhaps, as St Paul expanded upon it. >>The Seventh-day Adventist church believes and teaches that the "everlasing life" referred to in 1 John 5: 13 commences with the new birth. It is a quality of life that begins in the present and eventually results in the gift of immortality.<< [ed.jasd] Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Note the tenses. 2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 C0r 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 2 Cor 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 or 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. “Ye shall never never die” – the emphatic, by Jesus Christ. ”Ye shall not never die” – the emphatic, by Jesus Christ. None of those verses teach that mankind now is immortal or has an immortal spirit or soul. If you believe they do, please explain them in a way that makes that point clear. Quote: JOHN3:17-->>Since humans do not now possess an immortal soul or spirit,<< Quote: JASD-- Heb 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, How does Hebrews 4: 12 teach that humans now possess an immortal soul or spirit? All that has been done here is to show that Hebrews speaks of the spirit and soul. It does not say either are immortal or that they are conscious entities apart from the body. When did God put an immortal spirit or soul within the body of man? Where is the evidence that He did so? And does the Bible show that God made human beings immortal (not subject to death) before they were tested in order to see if they would be faithful to God? Quote: JOHN3:17-- >>...when they die the first death, they go into the grave and sleep unconsciously until the Second Coming. at which time they will be resurrected and made immortal.<< Quote: JASD---1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. It is the mortal body, having returned to dust – when resurrected – puts on immortality. The soul/spirit... Eccl 12:7 and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. and we know that Gd is not the Gd of the ‘dead’. Notice that Ecc. 12: 7 does not say the spirit of some shall return to God but that the spirit per se (of all, both good and evil) shall return to God who gave it. But the important question that needs to be asked and answered is, what exactly is the spirit that returns to God? What spirit did God give? Is that spirit a conscious, immortal entity apart from the body? _________________________ Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#183039 - 09/02/08 08:41 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: jasd]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10402 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: jasd Quote: JOHN3:17-->>Give their definitions in all 12 occurances in the NT.<, Quote: JASD--(h)orama is, as you note, used occurs twelve times in the NT – once as sight (Acts 7:31) and eleven times as vision Acts 7:31 – sight Matthew 17:9 and Acts 9:10, 12; 10:3, 17, 19; 11:5; 12:9; 16:9, 10; 18:9 – vision Here is Louw & Nida, once more: -horama:: an event in which something appears vividly and credibly to the mind, although not actually present, but implying that influence of some divine or supernatural power or agency – ‘vision.’ Refer: Acts 9:12; 2 Cor 12:1; Rev 9:17 —Louw & Nida You’ll notice I’ve included a couple of variants upon (horama). Even Louw and Nida say that horama can mean "what is seen" and does not always imply that something is not real. Witness, for instance, Acts 7:31. See the evidence below: horama in the New Testament Definitions Thayer1) that which is seen, spectacle2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision Part of Speech: noun neuter Citing in TDNT: 5:371, 706 StrongG3705 From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision. Louw-NidaGloss Section a something seen 24.2 b vision 33.488 MORE: The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 3705 Browse Lexicon Original Word Word Origin orama from (3708) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Horama 5:371,706 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech hor'-am-ah Noun Neuter Definition that which is seen, spectacle a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision _________________________ Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#183041 - 09/02/08 09:09 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: jasd]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10402 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: jasd >>They were taken to heaven on the basis of what Christ would accomplish in the future. Remember that the plan of salvation was so certain-- because God was determined to do it-- that it was as good as done before it had occurred within history.<< I’d say it would be more interesting to posit that they had received their reward as a result of the cross and – had regressed in time – to the transfiguration event. Otherwise, there exists a problem with the concept of firstfruits – Enoch, Elijah, and Moses – having interrupted the queue; y'know, each in their own order... :-o 1 Cor. 15: 23, which refers to Christ as the "firstfruits," and those who are later resurrected, does not signify that Enoch, Elijah and Moses were not taken to heaven. If you believe this is the necessary meaning of 1 Cor. 15: 23-- or of any other verse in the Bible-- please show how this is the the only way we can understand that verse. Could you explain what you mean by "had regressed in time-- to the transfiguration event"? _________________________ Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#183042 - 09/02/08 09:19 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: jasd]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10402 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: jasd Quote: Quote:jasd ...far outweigh the few that attempt a more liberal translation. >>There is nothing wrong with literal translations.<< I agree; however, I think the issue turns upon “liberal translation” Translations fall in the categories of "literal," "dynamic," and "paraphrase." There are some translations, such as the NIV, which fall somewhere in between literal and dynamic. The literal translations are usually listed as the KJV, NKJV, NASB, and RSV and NRSV, and of course, Robert Young's Literal and Rotherham's translation. When it comes to the word "horama"-- translated as "vision" or "what he saw," or "sight"-- it can be correctly translated either way. One of the definitions of "horama" is "sight" or "something seen." It may also be translated "vision" in the sense of being something seen. Its use at Acts 7: 31 proves without question that it does not necessarily signify something that occurs only in the mind. In both Matt. 17: 9 and Acts 7: 31 it refers to an unusual, amazing sight. _________________________ Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#183043 - 09/02/08 09:36 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: jasd]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10402 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: jasd Quote: JOHN3:17-->>Do you believe that the events recorded in Exodus 3, of God's appearing to Moses at the burning bush, were real or merely a vision in Moses' head?<< JASD-- I tend to validate the KJV in using, in this instance, the term ‘sight’ – as opposed to ‘vision’. Quote: JOHN3:17-->>There is excellent reason to believe this is also its meaning in Matt. 17: 9,<< Quote: JASD-- Upon this point I disagree. To hold to that exposition of Writ introduces dissonance... This is the very point that needs to be looked at carefully, to see if it really does introduce dissonance. I do not believe that it is out of harmony with the rest of Scripture. It is a point that needs to be proven and not simply assumed. Quote: JOHN3:17-- >>...and that is how virtually all Bible commentators and translators understand it.<< Quote: JASD--I have a very high opinion of those who translated the KJV – and find myself in agreement with them re Matthew 17:9. But that is just the point-- translating horama as "vision" does not necessarily imply something that was not actual or real. If we understand vision in the Biblical sense, it can mean either real or unreal, depending on the context. _________________________ Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#183044 - 09/02/08 09:51 AM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: jasd]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10402 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: jasd >>Going back to Jesus being the archangel Michael.<< Does Writ, anywhere, tell us that Michael is Jesus Christ? I read all the references proffered re "Angel of the Lord" and though I found it interesting - I failed to find anything where I would not have to rely upon a construction to deduce a Michael-is-Jesus Christ motif. Yes, it does teach that Jesus Christ is also called Michael, but it is like a lot of other Bible teachings-- they require a person to put all the evidence together. Revelation was/is progressive and not all the Bible writers saw everything as plainly as some other writers or prophets did. For instance, Moses, Isaiah, and Daniel apparently saw the Messiah more clearly than, say, Amos saw Him. God wants us to dig for the truth as for hidden treasure, which requires searching and reasoning from the scriptures. It also requires a willingness to change and to be led by the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, none of us can correctly understand the Scriptures. _________________________ Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#183050 - 09/02/08 01:40 PM Re: What Catholic Doctrine or Beliefs are in error, and whats the orig [Re: John317]
Fausto Registered: 06/24/08 Posts: 135 Loc: South Africa	Originally Posted By: jasd, post-#182829 How do the twelve loaves represent Christ? Well, Christ is the bread of life, the 12 loaves stood for the 12 tribes of Israel. You can always check this website to confer the menings and symbols. Sanctuary
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