What is the consensus around here on what this means?

1 Cor 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Thanks,

The consensus is that there is no consensus on what this obscure and difficult passage mean, and that one should not build a theological edifice on just one post supporting it.

Gerry

>>>The consensus is that there is no consensus on what this obscure and difficult passage mean, and that one should not build a theological edifice on just one post supporting it.

Thanks, Gerry.

However, ISTM that most Christian doctrines are built on prooftexts.

When several Bible writers say the same thing, then it is reasonable to use what they say as proof to establish a doctrine.

Gerry

The Bible says that the "dead know not anything neither have they any more reward." The dead are already saved or lost as the case may be.

That is true. Paul is not saying that Christians ought to baptize in behalf of the dead. He is simply observing that some people show that they believe in a future life by baptizing for the dead.

There are other legitmate ways of understanding this verse, however. For instance, it's entirely possible that Paul is talking about people who were baptized because they anticipated seeing their beloved dead in the future.

Baptism of the dead...is this not a practice of the Church of Latter Day Saints or more commonly known as the Mormons?

When Paul and the Corinthian believers studied the scriptures, they studied primarily the Old Testament (because the New Testament was still being written and wasn't widely available yet).

I suspect that Paul's meaning in this verse was probably clearer to folks who were well versed in the Old Testament.

Baptism was an Old Testament practice. It's related to the Hebrew word mikvah or ceremonial washing.

In the books of Moses, there are special washings prescribed for various occasions. Two of the most special washings were for people who had been in contact with the dead. They were to wash with water mixed with the ashes of a red heifer on the third day and on the seventh day before returning to worship at the Sanctuary. (Numbers 19:11ff)

What does this have to do with the resurrection of the dead that Paul was talking about? I don't know -- maybe nothing at all.

It is possible that the washing with red heifer ashes was referred to as "Mikvah-ing because of the dead", and when it got translated in to Greek it may have become "baptized for the dead". Of course, this is speculation, so don't quote me on this.

Perhaps when Paul was previously living in Corinth, one of their epic discussions had been about about the reasons for participating in a mikvah. Paul's comment may have been referring back to the arguments presented or the conclusions drawn from that discussion. Paul and his original readers in Corinth would have been familiar with what had been discussed before, but we haven't a clue.

Yes, it is one of their main doctrines. Virtually everyone who dies is baptized by proxy, because the Mormon's believe in the immortality of the soul, and because they believe that if no one is baptized for the dead, that dead person has no real chance of salvation. Mormon's also believe that the living once existed in heaven before being born with a body on this earth. Many of these ideas they get, not from the Bible but from the writings of Joseph Smith.

Thanks for those comments about baptism for the dead. I had never considered that aspect before as an explanation.

Romans 6 tells us the purpose of baptism. Jesus was alive when He was baptized. I think that we do best to follow His example.
On the subject of Mormon's baptizing for the dead. I went on a tour of the temple built in Albuquerque NM before it's dedication and our guide showed us the baptismal and indicated that there was the practice of batizing for the dead. That was from their mouths.

Did they say HOW this is done?

Do they wash a document bearing the names or just sprinkle it?

It would be a rare thing to have access to ashes or bones.

Baptism does not only mean to be immersed in scripture. For example, Christ asked the apostles (referring to his suffering and death) if they were able to be "baptized with HIS baptism". Mt.20:22-23 "22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: .."

It is clear in this verse that "baptism" meant to personally suffer. It is likely that 1Corinthians 15 had the same meaning as to "suffer" for the dead. After all, in scripture the concept of suffering for the dead is extant in the new testament.

Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5 - Even when we were DEAD in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Colossians 2:13 - And you, being DEAD in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

It really isn't foreign at all. Christ suffered and died for the sins of those who were dead, like the sins of Abraham, Noah, Issac, Jacob and the sins of all the prophets, all who were dead.

Thanks very much for those thoughts. I hadn't thought of those things before, but I can see they're worth considering. I'll look at them carefully and then write a response. Thanks again.

It is indeed one of the most profound yet simple truths I have ever come to know. It does explain how that the sacrifices of those on earth do benefit those are no longer living on earth. Otherwise, the sufferings and sacrifice of Christ would not have benefited those those who has passed from this life. And we, ourselves were dead in sins when Christ offered himself for his and saved or (quickened) while dead in sins. Who will ever deny that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for the dead?

profound! Isn't it?!

Yet I am sure you will admit that after his death, a person cannot change his status from one of being lost to one of being saved. There is no probationary period following an individual death. Isn't that what the parable of the rich man and Lazarus teaches?

I would not say there is a probationary period after one's death. Nonetheless, the sacrifice of Christ was offered for the dead and they were aided by it. No one can deny it.

Yes, Christ's sacrifice aided the dead, but on the basis of what the dead did while they were living, not while they were dead. In other words, the dead have no ability to accept Christ or to praise God or to have faith in Christ. All that is to be done on behalf of people must be done before they die. As pointed out before, that is the primary lesson of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Take advantage of the time you have now, because once you die, it is too late. After death, there is no change in a person's spiritual condition. A person going into the grave unconverted and rebellious against God, will be raised in that same state of mind.

Speaking of the dead, what is meant by 1 Cor. 15: 18?

It says that without the resurrection of the body, the dead are "perished," "lost." How could the dead be perished if they are conscious and alive in heaven or in the presence of the grace of God?

The CEV says it well: And those people who died after putting their faith in him are completely lost.

Could Paul have said this if he believed that the dead go immediately to be with the Lord?

Could you give me between 10 and 20 verses that you would use in a Bible study on what happens when we die?

Feel free to add a comment with each verse to show what point is being made in the verse.

Later, if you like, I'll do the same.

Hi BibleShockers,

the passage is not difficult to understand when you keep it in context. Take it alone as you have posted and it can be confusing.

Here a context verse. 1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Then after proving that Christ is raised from the dead he asks the reotrical question, Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Co 15:29

The dead in this verse is referring to Christ. I'll reword it: If Christ has not been raised from the dead then why are we being baptized for a dead person?

Then he goes on to explain the futility of living if Christ in not raised fro the dead.

1Co 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die.

It's really not too difficult to understand if we use truth as a foundation and match it with the plan of salvation.

Norman

If the righteous dead are already aware of being in the presence of God's grace, how can it be said that they will be completely lost or perished if they are not resurrected?

Where do you believe the righteous dead are at this moment?

This is not the Seventh-day Adventist position.

In Matt. 10: 28, what is destroyed in hell? It says plainly that people are not merely souls or spirits in hell, but that both body and soul will be destroyed in hell. This proves that people are not taken to hell as disembodied spirits but they will have bodies at that time. Jesus is talking about real, literal, physical fire, and real people with real bodies.

Isaiah 1: 28 tells what will happen to them. They will be annihilated, which is the meaning of the Hebrew word there. (See Modern Language Bible, or New Berkeley Version.) They will be consumed.

Let me ask you something here. When the disciples were martyred, what happened to them. Where do you believe they are at this time?

This is not true at all of the Seventh-day Adventist position.

Where did you read such a thing?

What you are forgetting is that only God can take away a persons life for eternity. A wicked person can torment you for as long as he is able-- maybe years, yes-- but in the end the wicked must face God's judgment, and the one who was tormented will be raised from the dead and given the gift of immortality.

You have a strange conception of what SDAs believe about this.

Would you like it if I started putting words in your mouth? That is what you are doing here, because Adventists believe no such things as you are saying here. Maybe this is the conclusion you draw, but it is not at all representative of Adventist thinking.

I thought you wanted to exchange serious dialogue and attempt to gain a true understanding of what Adventists believe. Isn't that of importance? I know when I study with people, I am not interested in misunderstanding what they believe. It is best to know and have a correct understanding of the Adventist position. What good will it do you to go off misunderstanding what we believe?

I'd suggest getting a few of our books and studying what we teach. It sounds like you are reading some badly argued books opposed to SDA beliefs. That is not a good idea. When I study the believes of some group, I want to get all my knowledge of what they believe by studying their own books and literature. Otherwise you are liable to draw wrong conclusions.

No, we do not teach this. But if you want to believe something false, you are welcome to it. I just thought you wanted to know what Adventist actually believe, not what you or other people might think we believe.

[b]I didn't put words in your mouth. I said, "if you apply Adventist teaching...". Okay, here a chance to set me straight.

1. Is it or is it not true...That Adventism teaches that Christ will NOT torment the wicked for NOT EVEN AN HOUR, A DAY, A MONTH, OR A YEAR?

2. Is it or is it not true that... any mean spirited man can according to Adventist beliefs, "destroy both body and soul" in a fire, even a self made fire???

Is that correct?

No, we do not believe that the wicked can destroy the soul.

What does it mean to destroy the soul?

Let's discuss the soul.

Where does the Bible first describe it?

Turn to Genesis 1: 28 and 2: 7. What does it say? What constitutes a living soul?

I shouldn't even be talking to you about this because it is obvious you haven't the faintest notion of what Adventists believe about death of the wicked.

Seriously, why don't you study first? When I talk to Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormon's or whoever, I like to know what they believe form their own books, and not make a fool of myself by talking as if I know a lot when I obviously don't.

The answer to your questions above is NO to both of them.

Go study. Start with the info below. There are also lots of books by SDAs on the subject.

I will be glad to talk to you about these things after you stop telling me what I believe. I don't do this to you. I want to really understand what you say and I don't tell you what you believe. I wait for you to tell me. That is the only way to understand people and know what they actually believe. Here's a link to what we believe on this subject if you want to learn:

http://www.sundaylaw.net/books/other/brfthc/chapter_103.htm

In what condition was man created?

"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that Thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels." Heb. 2:6, 7.

What is the nature of angels?
"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." Luke 20:35, 36.

What are angels called?
"And of the angels he saith, Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire." Heb. 1:7.

What is the difference between the two Adams?
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." 1 Cor. 15:45.

Adam was made a living soul; but was he not a spiritual man?
"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." 1 Cor. 15:46.

When does man become a spiritual being?
"It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body, There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." 1 Cor. 15:44.

To what does the sowing refer?
"That which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die." 1 Cor. 15:36.
NOTE. - Man does not have the undying, spiritual nature of the angels until the resurrection. Then, if righteous, he cannot die anymore ( Luke 20:36), because he is "equal unto the angels."

How is man's nature defined?
"Shall mortal man be more just than God?" Job 4:17. NOTE. - Mortal. "Subject to death." Webster.

What is God's nature?
"Now unto the King, eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." 1 Tim. 1:17.
NOTE. - Immortal. "Exempt from liability to die." Webster.

Of what was man formed in the beginning?
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground." Gen. 2:7.

What act made him a living soul?
"And [God] breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen. 2:7.

Are others besides man called "living souls" in the Bible?
"And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea, and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea." Rev. 16:3. (See Gen. 1:30, margin.)

Do other creatures besides man have the "breath of life?"
"And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of foul, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man; all in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died." Gen. 7:21, 22.

Is theirs the same breath as man's?
"As the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no pre-eminence above a beast; for all is vanity." Ecc. 3:19.

The breath of life from God was breathed into man's nostrils in the beginning. What does Job call that which is in the nostrils?
"All the while my breath is in me. and the spirit of God is in my nostrils." Job 27:3.

When man gives up the spirit, what becomes of it?
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Eccl. 12:7.
NOTE. - That is, the spirit of life by which man lived, and which was only loaned to him of God, goes back to the great Author of life. It is His, and man can have it eternally, only as a gift from God, through Jesus Christ. (Rom. 6:23.)When the spirit goes back to God, the dust, which was in the beginning made a "living soul," goes back as it was, to the earth.

Can one have the spirit of life with him eternally. unless he has Christ?
"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12.

Why were the first guilty pair driven from the tree of life?
"And now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." Gen. 3:22.

What was done to keep man away from the tree of life?
"So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen. 3:24.

How are all men in the natural state regarded?
"We all... were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." Eph. 2:3.

If the wrath of God abides on a person, of what does it deprive him?
"He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36.

Through whom is the sinner saved from wrath?
"Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him." Rom. 5:9.

When the sinner has been converted, what then is his prospect for life?
"For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory." Col. 3:3, 4.

The word immortal occurs but once in the English Bible (1 Tim. 1:17) , and is there applied to God; is any other said to have immortality?
"Who is the blessed and only potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords: who only hath immortality." 1 Tim. 6:15, 16.

How is this desirable boon brought to light?
"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 2 Tim 1:10.
NOTE. - Then without the gospel one cannot have immortality, but the death penalty must abide on him.

How does man obtain immortality?
"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life." Rom. 2:7.
NOTE. - One does not need to seek for a thing which he already possesses.

When will the faithful receive immortality?
"Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor. 15:51, 52.

What is then to be swallowed up?
"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor. 15:54.

How is this victory gained?
"But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 15:51.

SUMMARY. - We have found that man was made of the dust of the ground, and caused to live by the breath, or spirit, of life from God. The clay thus animated, not the breath of life, is called a "living soul:" or creature, according to the original text. Other creatures live by the same process, and some of them, at least, are plainly called living souls. When man dies, he knows nothing until he lives again, simply because the vitalizing element that caused him to live and move and think has been taken from him, and gone back to its original Possessor. Unless that were brought back to man, he would be forever unconscious in death. But Christ, who is the believer's life, is to appear, and bring back to those who seek for it, that life which they forfeited through sin. It is thus that man obtains immortality.

Does the Bible say anywhere that the soul is immortal? If you believe it does, tell me the verse.

If the righteous dead are already aware of being in the presence of God's grace, how can it be said that they will be completely lost or perished if they are not resurrected?

Where do you believe the righteous dead are at this moment?

Okay, I understand now, you all have borrowed the old Herbert and GT Armstrong stance that the spirit goes on in some manner but isn't conscience. Nonetheless, you have it, though I think won't admit it, that the soul is immortal, if it can't be killed. Because you can't have it both ways.

I see a great deal of proof-texting in your reply that is simply scripture applied totally out of context. For example: A student of the scriptures would know better than claim this verse teaches that ONLY Christ has immortality. We all know that the angels have immortality as well, they don't have it in the same way that Christ has it, which is self-sustaining immortality as Paul meant. The Apostle Paul certainly didn't mean that angels were mortal and could die. On and On and On..

There is all kinds of that sort of thing in your above reply. I don't have time to address all the errors, but they are numerous. Maybe tomorrow, I'll get to them.

I do not know the Greek root of "hath" in that context - does it imply intrinsic ownership, not imparted from outside?
That is the kind of immortality God has.

The angels on the other hand would appear to have conditional immortality - assuming you believe Lucifer had immortality at one stage and is later prophesied to come to a complete end. While I do not believe it happens, I would see it as possible that an angel who sins would lose immortality even in these times.

Hence I find your dismissal of that text not very convincing to your argument.

You may find my explanation the same....in which case we would just agree to not agree.

No, friend, wrong on both counts. Armstrong came long after Adventists.

Wish you would explain about what your understanding is of our belief about the spirit. Not sure where you got the impression that we believe the spirit goes on in some manner.

The spirit is essentially the breath. It is not a conscious entity that survives the death of the body. The spirit is the breath of life that God breathed into us so that we became living souls, or living nephish, or living creatures or beings.

OK we can study these things again later.

By the way, Martin Luther believed essentially what I am telling you, as have hundreds of great Christians throughout the centuries. If you go on to any Christian university where the Bible is taught, you find professors of theology who agree with what I am saying. It is not quite as unusual as you might think.

Why don't you give me the verses that you believe make the strongest case for the immortality of the soul?

Here is the issue for me, after studying this question for many years, and reading lots of books that take the view of the immortality of the soul:

I do not believe that the Bible teaches both the immortality of the soul and the non-immortality of the soul. It does not teach two different, contradictory views of the nature of man and of what happens when a man dies. I believe the Bible is clear about it. I don't think God is playing mind games with us.

The problem is this: that there are lots of clear verses on the topic, but there are some verses that are not so clear, and then there are a few verses that seem to teach that the dead are conscious. For instance, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, and the promise of Christ to the dying thief, as well as two or three others.

However, it is always a rule of Bible interpretation that we should let the clear verses explain the unclear ones, and not the other way around.

By the way, have you studied the Hebrew view of the nature of man? They had a holistic view of man. In other words, they did not believe that man is made up of a spirit or soul that inhabited the body and survived the death of the individual.

The Hebrews were different in this way from the Greek, who saw the soul as immortal and inhabiting the body. The Greeks got their views on this from the Babylonians and the Egyptians. Herodotus (c. 400 BC), the "father of history," writes about this in his Histories in Book 2, paragraph 123. It's also well known that the Greeks had a great influence on the Hebrews during the intertestamental period. This influence come through very clearly in the books of the Maccabees, where at one point, there are prayers said for the dead. This never occurs in the books of the Hebrew Canon, and for good reason.

You're right.

1 Tim. 6: 16 says that God "alone HAS immortality." It uses the word ECHO, which means to have, to hold, to possess. It's a present participle and is sometimes (NIV) translated as "is immortal." But the idea is that God alone intrinsically and continuously possesses immortality. The others are immortal as a conditional gift from God. Adam and Eve were made conditionally immortal. That is, they would have been given permanent immortality once they passed the test of faithfulness to God.

I'd like to know what Humble believes about this.

1) What did God tell Adam and Eve would be the result if they transgressed by partaking of the forbidden fruit?

"Thou shalt surely die." Gen. 2:17.

2) What did Satan say to Eve concerning this?

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall NOT surely die." Gen. 3:4.

NOTE.-This, as far as the record shows, was the first lie,- a direct denial of the word of God. By persuading Eve to accept and believe it, Satan led our first parents to commit sin; and, as "the wages of sin is death," by it, also, he caused their death, and so became, in reality, the first murderer. A lie, therefore, is a twin brother to murder, and one of the most hateful things to God, the "God of truth." See Prov. 6:16-19. "The lip of truth shall be established forever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment." Prov. 12:19. "All liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." Rev. 21:8. See also Rev. 21:27; 22:15.

3) What has been the result of sin's entrance into the world?

"By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin." Rom. 5:12. "By one man's disobedience many were made sinners." Verse 19. "The whole world lieth in wickedness." 1 John 5:19. "In Adam all die." 1 Cor. 15:22.

4) What evidence does the Holy Scripture provide that the soul can die?

"The soul that sins shall die." Ezekiel 18: 4, 20. (Notice the soul is the individual.)

5) After a person dies, what does the Bible call him?

A dead nephish, i.e., a dead soul. See Hebrew of Numbers 6: 6.

6) Before a person dies, what does the Bible call him?

A living nephish, i.e., a living soul, or being, or creature. Gen. 2: 7;

7) Are animals also called "living nephish," or living souls? Yes.

Genesis 1: 21-- "And God created... every living nephish that moves...", i.e., creature.

John, here's the problem for you. The fact is: Adventism teaches that the soul is dormant or unconscious and has no self awareness and unable to be aware of anything, which is THE VERY SAME THING THAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY ARE "DESTROYED" or annihilated. There is not one whit of difference between the two. So for all your discussion of Greek words, it doesn't make a hill of beans. There is not one whit of difference between being annihilated and being so "soul sleeped" that you have no awareness. Accordingly, any mean spirited man can do exactly what Christ can do to you...send you to a place where you have no self awareness.


And, I am absolutely correct in saying that Adventism teaches that it is FAR WORSE THING to fall into the hands of a mere man that would torment him for hours, days, months even years THAN CHRIST'S HANDS!

I have never heard such a thing said by any Adventist, nor have I ever read it in any book by a Seventh-day Adventist. I certainly don't think that way.

It seems to me you are going by what you think we might think on the basis of what you think we believe.

Perhaps that is how you think someone must think if they reject the immortality of the soul, but believe me, people who believe in the non-immorality of the soul don't think that way at all.

There were quite a few Adventists and also "Jehovah's Witnesses" (who believe similarly to us on this issue) in the Nazi concentration camps. Do you think they were more fearful of the Nazis than they were of God? That is really preposterous. If you talked to them or saw them in the camps, you would know how foolish it is to think they were more fearful of the Nazis than of God.

For one thing, your idea assumes that people serve God out of fear of what God can do to you. That is not based on love, and love casts out fear. People who really love God don't choose to obey Him because of His ability to torture them.

So in whatever way you look at it, it is simply wrong-headed thinking to assume that those who do not believe in the immortality of soul are more afraid of men than of God.