Does God Choose or does Man...


Can God, being omniscient, choose those who will be saved or does man out of his on free will choose to be saved.


2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Prov 19;21 "many plans are in the hearts of man, but its the Lords purpose that prevails"

If God chose, then how would it be free will?

I believe the verse means that God determined to save all who should put their faith in Jesus Christ. I don't believe it means that God arbitrarily chose to save some and to condemn others. The Bible plainly teaches that God would have all come to a knowledge of Christ and be saved. God certainly does not get any pleasure out of the death of the wicked.
We would not choose Christ or desire what is right apart from the Holy Spirit, but ultimately it is up to each person to decide whether he or she wants Christ and salvation. People are able to resist the Holy Spirit if they choose to. God doesn't force people to obey Him but he gets pleasure out of worship and love which is intelligently and freely given.

From God's point of view "all men" have been saved (past tense) "in Christ"!

Go to Eph 2:4



Again, "in Christ" all men have been saved by grace. Read it again, that's what it says: "by grace (not faith...not works) you have been saved (past tense)". Where? "In Christ"! And Christ as the Son of Man died some 2000 years ago.

Now let's read on:

8 For by grace you have been saved [past tense] through faith...

God saved you "in Christ", but you received this truth by faith. God didn't force it on you, but it is already yours if you want it. However, you have the free will to reject it and say, "No thanks, I don't need your stinking grace because I am perfectly able to save myself." That's essentially what everyone who rejects Christ is telling Him.

Let's look at another one:

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ, the 2nd Adam] there resulted justification of life to all men.

In other words "in Christ" the sentence of death (condemnation) has been reserved some 2000 years ago. Hence by grace you were saved. But now go back one verse to 17:

For if by the transgression of the one [Adam], death reigned through the one [all men die because all men were made sinners in Adam], much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Here's the thing...all men have been saved "in Christ". What does that mean for you born some 2000 years later?

John 1:9 "That was the true Light [Jesus], which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

Everyone...all mankind is, through the Spirit, enlighten with God's grace. No one can say, "I didn't know"!

Of course, it is significant that Paul is writing to people who have placed their faith in Christ. They are saved "in Christ," that is, in union with Christ; having a faith-based relationship with Him. 1 John 5 says that we have the life if we have Christ, and we do not have the life if we do not have Him. Eternal life is in possessing Christ and the Holy Spirit.

"By faith you have been saved THROUGH [personal] FAITH [or trust]." We cannot trust in Christ before we're born, of course. Compare John 3: 16. All who have faith in Christ might be saved.

Could you point to any verses regarding the preaching of the gospel in the NT where it is said that all humans are already saved and now people have merely to accept it?

Doesn't the Bible consistently say things such as, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and YOU WILL BE SAVED," not "you are already saved or you were saved before you were born"?

Faith in God or Christ certainly does not earn the believer merit with God, yet it is necessary to receive salvation. Faith has been rightly compared to the empty hand that reaches out to receive God's free gift.

There is no question that God gave Christ to die for all humanity before we were born. Therefore it is true that the provision was made for all of us to be saved at the time Christ was crucified. The plan to save us was as good as done even before the Fall of Adam.

Salvation is a convergence of TWO choices: God chooses to call, and some choose to accept the call.

Gerry

True, Paul's various letters are to either individuals or the churches, but that doesn't mean Paul is always writing about believers. Again, go back to Eph 2: 4

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love [agape] with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...."

What does Paul mean by "even when we were dead in our transgressions"? Go to verse 1:

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world."

This simply means that "in Christ" God saved you by His grace even though you were walking according to the principle of this world. Very clear for those who are not steeped in tradition.

Now go to Romans 5:6

"While we were still weak [eat up with the flesh], at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man—though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die. 8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."

When you were sinful...living for the flesh...when your mind and flesh (nature) were in harmony....when you hated God...Jesus saved you in Himself! When you were enemies, you were reconciled to God through Christ. Hence, you were justified not by faith, but by His blood (see Romans 6:6/7:4)

Otherwise, John, you make "faith" - not Christ - the savior. You can say "MY faith saved me." But if that's true then Christ must die again and again every time someone believes.

Rob

I've already given you some, but first don't forget that EGW has babies, who have died before they exercised faith towards God, in heaven. You like to ignore that one....

This truth could only be possible if our condemnation "in Adam" was reversed "in Christ". According to Romans 5:18 (and other statements) that is the case....

Now, are babies born sinful? Yes, the Bible clearly states this in many places. Yet these little ones, who never even understood the gospel, will be in heaven. Yes, they won't take their natures there...so no worries...but yet they'll be in heaven. How so? Not faith, but grace. Hence, as Paul says, "by grace you were saved."

Rob

I believe it is God's will that all men be saved. I believe God, through the Holy Spirit, puts His will in the hearts of men and gives men faith. It is not of free will to choose or not choose--God does the choosing. He chooses ALL men.

Yes, we are justified by Christ's giving his life for us. Our faith is not what justifies us. Justification, the forgiveness of sins and the imputed righteousness of Christ, are all a gift-- completely unearned.

But we must accept the gift. God gives us the desire and makes it possible for us to choose Him, but we can and often do resist Him. God gives us that choice. We have to decide consciously to put our wills on God's side. We surrender our wills and our righteousness for God's will and for His righteousness.

Faith is the empty hand of man reaching out to accept the gift of God.

Faith cannot possibly be the savior because it doesn't contribute to God's gift. It merely accepts it.

To say faith then becomes our savior would like saying accepting someone's gift earns or makes the gift. If I am handing you a check of $1,000, and you refuse to put your hand out to accept it, will you ever be able to use the gift?

Who is the hero if someone throws a drowning person a rope or life-jacket? Is the drowning man who grabs the rope the hero? No. Because all he has done is accept the rope thrown to him by another person. That's the way it is with us: God has thrown us a rope, and even given us power to grab it and the desire for it -- but we have to decide to reach out our empty hand. If we don't, we drown.







In the way way, we cannot logically see faith as our Savior simply because God requires that we give Him permission to save us. He won't save us against our wills.