Does God Choose or does Man...


Can God, being omniscient, choose those who will be saved or does man out of his on free will choose to be saved.


2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Prov 19;21 "many plans are in the hearts of man, but its the Lords purpose that prevails"

If God chose, then how would it be free will?

I believe the verse means that God determined to save all who should put their faith in Jesus Christ. I don't believe it means that God arbitrarily chose to save some and to condemn others. The Bible plainly teaches that God would have all come to a knowledge of Christ and be saved. God certainly does not get any pleasure out of the death of the wicked.
We would not choose Christ or desire what is right apart from the Holy Spirit, but ultimately it is up to each person to decide whether he or she wants Christ and salvation. People are able to resist the Holy Spirit if they choose to. God doesn't force people to obey Him but he gets pleasure out of worship and love which is intelligently and freely given.

From God's point of view "all men" have been saved (past tense) "in Christ"!

Go to Eph 2:4



Again, "in Christ" all men have been saved by grace. Read it again, that's what it says: "by grace (not faith...not works) you have been saved (past tense)". Where? "In Christ"! And Christ as the Son of Man died some 2000 years ago.

Now let's read on:

8 For by grace you have been saved [past tense] through faith...

God saved you "in Christ", but you received this truth by faith. God didn't force it on you, but it is already yours if you want it. However, you have the free will to reject it and say, "No thanks, I don't need your stinking grace because I am perfectly able to save myself." That's essentially what everyone who rejects Christ is telling Him.

Let's look at another one:

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ, the 2nd Adam] there resulted justification of life to all men.

In other words "in Christ" the sentence of death (condemnation) has been reserved some 2000 years ago. Hence by grace you were saved. But now go back one verse to 17:

For if by the transgression of the one [Adam], death reigned through the one [all men die because all men were made sinners in Adam], much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Here's the thing...all men have been saved "in Christ". What does that mean for you born some 2000 years later?

John 1:9 "That was the true Light [Jesus], which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

Everyone...all mankind is, through the Spirit, enlighten with God's grace. No one can say, "I didn't know"!

Of course, it is significant that Paul is writing to people who have placed their faith in Christ. They are saved "in Christ," that is, in union with Christ; having a faith-based relationship with Him. 1 John 5 says that we have the life if we have Christ, and we do not have the life if we do not have Him. Eternal life is in possessing Christ and the Holy Spirit.

"By faith you have been saved THROUGH [personal] FAITH [or trust]." We cannot trust in Christ before we're born, of course. Compare John 3: 16. All who have faith in Christ might be saved.

Could you point to any verses regarding the preaching of the gospel in the NT where it is said that all humans are already saved and now people have merely to accept it?

Doesn't the Bible consistently say things such as, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and YOU WILL BE SAVED," not "you are already saved or you were saved before you were born"?

Faith in God or Christ certainly does not earn the believer merit with God, yet it is necessary to receive salvation. Faith has been rightly compared to the empty hand that reaches out to receive God's free gift.

There is no question that God gave Christ to die for all humanity before we were born. Therefore it is true that the provision was made for all of us to be saved at the time Christ was crucified. The plan to save us was as good as done even before the Fall of Adam.

Salvation is a convergence of TWO choices: God chooses to call, and some choose to accept the call.

Gerry

True, Paul's various letters are to either individuals or the churches, but that doesn't mean Paul is always writing about believers. Again, go back to Eph 2: 4

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love [agape] with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...."

What does Paul mean by "even when we were dead in our transgressions"? Go to verse 1:

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world."

This simply means that "in Christ" God saved you by His grace even though you were walking according to the principle of this world. Very clear for those who are not steeped in tradition.

Now go to Romans 5:6

"While we were still weak [eat up with the flesh], at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man—though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die. 8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."

When you were sinful...living for the flesh...when your mind and flesh (nature) were in harmony....when you hated God...Jesus saved you in Himself! When you were enemies, you were reconciled to God through Christ. Hence, you were justified not by faith, but by His blood (see Romans 6:6/7:4)

Otherwise, John, you make "faith" - not Christ - the savior. You can say "MY faith saved me." But if that's true then Christ must die again and again every time someone believes.

Rob

I've already given you some, but first don't forget that EGW has babies, who have died before they exercised faith towards God, in heaven. You like to ignore that one....

This truth could only be possible if our condemnation "in Adam" was reversed "in Christ". According to Romans 5:18 (and other statements) that is the case....

Now, are babies born sinful? Yes, the Bible clearly states this in many places. Yet these little ones, who never even understood the gospel, will be in heaven. Yes, they won't take their natures there...so no worries...but yet they'll be in heaven. How so? Not faith, but grace. Hence, as Paul says, "by grace you were saved."

Rob

I believe it is God's will that all men be saved. I believe God, through the Holy Spirit, puts His will in the hearts of men and gives men faith. It is not of free will to choose or not choose--God does the choosing. He chooses ALL men.

Yes, we are justified by Christ's giving his life for us. Our faith is not what justifies us. Justification, the forgiveness of sins and the imputed righteousness of Christ, are all a gift-- completely unearned.

But we must accept the gift. God gives us the desire and makes it possible for us to choose Him, but we can and often do resist Him. God gives us that choice. We have to decide consciously to put our wills on God's side. We surrender our wills and our righteousness for God's will and for His righteousness.

Faith is the empty hand of man reaching out to accept the gift of God.

Faith cannot possibly be the savior because it doesn't contribute to God's gift. It merely accepts it.

To say faith then becomes our savior would like saying accepting someone's gift earns or makes the gift. If I am handing you a check of $1,000, and you refuse to put your hand out to accept it, will you ever be able to use the gift?

Who is the hero if someone throws a drowning person a rope or life-jacket? Is the drowning man who grabs the rope the hero? No. Because all he has done is accept the rope thrown to him by another person. That's the way it is with us: God has thrown us a rope, and even given us power to grab it and the desire for it -- but we have to decide to reach out our empty hand. If we don't, we drown.







In the way way, we cannot logically see faith as our Savior simply because God requires that we give Him permission to save us. He won't save us against our wills.

I'm referring to the way the gospel was presented by Christ, the disciples, and the apostles. Where do they proclaim the gospel of Christ as salvation that has already happened to everyone and that is ours even before we make any choice?

Yes, the sacrifice was made before we were born. But that is not the question. Where do they proclaim it by saying that all men are already justified and saved and that all we must do is accept the salvation that is already ours? Is it ever clearly put in that way in the NT?

I am not ignoring the Ellen White quote about babies. I believe it. I believe Ellen White was God's messenger and a true prophet. But that quote cannot be made the basis of how we present the gospel. We cannot make it the basis of our soteriology or our theology of mission. Ellen White never would have wanted that and she did not write it in order for it to be used in that way.

I agree with you that it's God's will that all men be saved. He does choose all men in that sense. But how do you account for the fact that some will be saved but most will be lost? Most people go down the broad road that leads to destruction, whereas a few travel the narrow road that leads to salvation. God wants everyone to arrive at the same destination. Why then, do you believe, do most arrive finally at the wrong place?

Read me!

Here's a sample:

I'm in Denver today, Sabbath, and since I can't get to a church, I'm enjoying studying Jack Sequiera's book, Christ Speaks to Laodicea. Have you read this book and do you believe all of it? (I asked you this once before on a different thread but am not sure if you saw it or answered.) I'm finding it very interesting and worth while. I'm a little over half way through. Except for the part about Job, I haven't seen anything that I would disagree with.

Some time I would be interested in devoting a thread to his book and to a discussion of it.

I have never known anyone who has actually been to the "final" destination. I am, rather, convinced that God wants us all to be with Him in eternity. I believe it is His choice, His will, His desire and His efforts that will ensure that not a single one of His children be lost eternally. I believe that God works with us and for us so that we each will come to an understanding of His will and of His divine love. I believe that now we only know "in part", but then, [i]i.e. sometime in the future, we will know "in full". I believe that ALL things are possible with God. I believe in a mysterious strange act in which God will demonstrate His unfailing love and will woo the hearts of everyone.

Jesus' death certainly shows that God loves everyone and that He wants everyone to be saved. He has opened the door to His Kingdom and invited everyone in-- but there are conditions to entering in, of course.

Many of the verses given above really speak of God as the sustainer of all humanity, despite the rebellion and sin. In this way, God's grace is extended to and falls upon all. None of us-- including those who hate God and want nothing to do with Him--would be alive now if it wasn't for Jesus Christ.

I see Romans 5: 10, 18 as teaching that it's through Christ that humanity is brought back into harmony with God, just as it was through Adam that man lost this harmony. Verses 18 and 19 are basically saying the same thing. (Remember that the verb in the last phrase of v. 18 is not in the original text but is supplied. It could just as easily be "leads" or "results" as "there resulted," etc.

I've read that link before. I know what Jack S. teaches on this subject. But what I am asking for are specific verses in Acts, for instance, which show the gospel being proclaimed in the way you've presented it here-- that is, as salvation or justification that has already happened before we were born or put our faith in Christ.

What do you think about the fact that the preaching and proclamation of the gospel in Acts does not reflect the idea that the whole world was justified at the time of Christ's death? At least I do not see it there. Do you?

OK, I think I understand. I did not know before what you believed about this topic.

I'm sure you've been asked before, and probably get tired of answering, the question about such verses as 2 Thess. 1: 7-9; 2: 8-10; Matt. 20: 46; and Rev. 20:9, among others. My question is, then, how does one believe that eventually all people will be saved, and harmonize the belief in universal salvation with the verses that teach otherwise?

Good question. Do you want my opinion; or do you want an in-depth answer with biblical texts which, in my opinion, support my beliefs? If it is the latter, it will take much more time than I have right now, but I am willing to take on the task and supply you with those answers (in time).

If you really think that in the end NO ONE will be lost including the demons, yeah, I for one would like to see your Biblical basis for such a belief.

Gerry

John, John, John...you're not listening! Please step back from your traditional dogma.

If you really read Sequeira then you should have read this:

I was interested mostly in your opinion-- how you think about this question, but you could also answer at length if you like sometime when you have time. I'm interested in both.

Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God’s Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The “Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. [COL 385]

Why not simply quote or cite the Bible verses in Acts or wherever that show that the gospel was proclaimed in the way you've described?

I have no problem with Jack Sequeira's understanding. I agree with him on that point.

I am merely asking for evidence that the gospel was preached in the early church to the effect that people have already been justified and saved before they were born. Maybe there is no evidence of that. Can the evidence for this be found in the preaching of Peter or Paul or Silas, etc.?

Those are all good, and I agree with them.

Again, I am asking for clear Bible evidence that in the NT, and specifically, in the book of Acts, the gospel is proclaimed in a way that teaches all humanity has been justified and saved before people were born.

This is important because it goes to the issue of how God wants us to proclaim the gospel. Should we pattern our proclamation after the NT, or should we invent a new paradigm for preaching the Good News? In other words, does God want us to tell people, "You are already justified and saved. All you need to do is accept that fact"?

Is that how you believe the church ought to preach and teach the Good News? Is that how you do it personally?

I'm more acquainted with Paul's writing, so I'll stick with his letters....

What does the law require of you, John?

1] You must obey me in every detail with no mistakes,

2] but if you fail to obey me, even in one point, you must die the 2nd death.

Now are you telling me that when you believed the above two requirements became true? If so, when did you obey the law perfectly and when did you die the 2nd death for your failure to do so?

Now we can get down to the real issues....

Rob

One of the great challenges that faces the Christian Church today is how can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Because no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one many sincere people, especially Islamic scholars, accuse Christianity of being an unethical religion. Their main argument is that the doctrine of substitution, as taught by Christianity, is based on a faulty Roman law which allowed an innocent man, Christ, to die in place of the guilty human race. Hence they accuse the Christians religion of “legal fiction.”

It is true that even the law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty — “the soul that sins, it must die” [Deuteronomy 24:16; Ezekiel 18:1-20 emphasis supplied]. What than is the Biblical solution to the problem of “legal fiction.” The answer is the in Christ motif or idea, the central theme of the apostle Paul’s theology.

I have never said this is what I believe, Rob.

I believe exactly what 1 John says-- the whole book-- including 1 John 1 and 2.

It seems to me that you prefer looking at the gospel from the legalistic viewpoint rather than from the viewpoint of the New Covenant.

Believers in Christ-- if they understand the gospel and have the Spirit in their lives-- are not trying to earn merit with God by their obedience to law.

"Our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with...." [Rom 6:6]

When did your old life from Adam die in the humanity of Christ? Not when you believed, but some 2000 years ago! In fact not only did you die "in Christ", but the whole human race died in Him:

"One died for all, therefore all died!" [2 Cor 5:14]

Rob

I know what Jack Sequeira teaches. I would like you to tell me, if possible, what you believe personally and give answers based on your thinking, not on Jack's.

Romans 6: 6 is plainly talking about believers in Christ who have put their faith in Him. See verses immediately before and after v. 6. I see no evidence there that it is referring to the entire planet. I do agree, however, that Christ did give His life for all of humanity.

Our old self is crucified with Christ by faith when we acknowledge Christ and put our faith in His saving acts. I do not see how the verse can be made to signify that this crucifixion happened before I was born and that Hitler's old self was also equally crucified with Christ.

The law must be answered, John! Otherwise God could have simply bypassed it...made it void!

No, the law's demands must be legally and ethically answered. And they were "in Christ".


By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man [mankind - all men!]. [How?] This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself....To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption. [7BC 927]

John, it's simple....All of us - black, white, male, female - come from one man - the fallen life of Adam. We are bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh. We are simply the multiplication of his life again and again....

That life, our corporate life, was assumed by Christ. Since Christ defeated the principle of sin (self-love) and since we were "in Him" we were made obedient. And when Christ died, we died too! How many died according to Paul? Right, "all died"!

Now a question (I hope it's not to hard for you): When did Christ die?

Right, 2000 years ago. And where was your humanity? Right, "in Him"! Hence your life answered the law "in Christ" some 2000 years ago! You were justified unto life in the body of Christ once and for all, not when you believed, by 2000 years ago.

Your faith doesn't make this truth so...it simply accepts it. Now you can reject the gospel...a lot of legalists do and will!

Rob

Romans 6: 6 is plainly talking about believers in Christ who have put their faith in Him. See verses immediately before and after v. 6. I see no evidence there that it is referring to the entire planet. I do agree, however, that Christ did give His life for all of humanity.

Our old self is crucified with Christ by faith when we acknowledge Christ and put our faith in His saving acts. I do not see how the verse can be made to signify that this crucifixion happened before I was born and that Hitler's old self was also equally crucified with Christ.

Yes, Paul does link this truth [the truth as it is in Christ] to faith and growth, but you must make the appropriate distinction:

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

So far Paul is talking about the fruit of accepting the gospel....


5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection....

Now Paul points back to the gospel, the truth as it is "in Christ" to make his point on Christian living:

6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin...

What Paul is referring to here is the actual gospel. "In Christ" God can actually look at us as if we are dead because our old life literally died in Him. That's the gospel...

The gospel is good news, not good advice as you make it out. That's why I accuse you of being an enemy of the gospel.

Rob

* We know that the apostle Paul was called of God to evangelize the Gentile world; but we must keep in mind that, unfortunately, none of Paul’s evangelistic sermons preached to the non-Christians or unchurched have been recorded or preserved. All that we have are his epistles to believers.

* In spite of this fact, there is enough evidence in these epistles to show that Paul gave the in Christ motif an objective application that included all of mankind. That is to say, Paul does not limit the in Christ motif only to believers but includes the entire human race that was redeemed in Christ. To Paul, believers are those who are faithful to the truth as it is in Christ. Note, for example, Paul’s introduction to the Ephesians [Ephesians 1:1].

* Here is my evidence that clearly proves Paul gave the in Christ motif an objective application that included the entire human race:

1. Paul reminds believers that they were redeemed or chosen in Christ before their conversion [Romans 5:6-10; Ephesians 1:4; 2:5,6]. If we limit these statements only to believers, than we would have to admit that Calvin’s doctrine of predestination is correct. But we don’t.

2. Paul points out to the Corinthian believers that just as “in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive,” that is, resurrected to life [1 Corinthians 15: 22]. The point Paul is making in this passage is that Christ is the source of the resurrection for the entire human race. The first resurrection will be experienced by the saints unto eternal life, because they believed in Christ; and the second resurrection will be experienced by the lost unto eternal damnation, because they rejected the truth as it is in Christ.

3. Paul refers to Christ as the “last Adam” in 1 Corinthians 15:45. As already pointed out, the word “Adam” in Hebrew means mankind. In the majority of cases, this word is not used as a proper name but as a truth, i.e., the solidarity of mankind in Adam. When Christ assumed our corporate humanity at the incarnation He, like the first Adam, became mankind, i.e., the entire human race was placed in HIm. That is why Paul calls Christ the last Adam, i.e., Mankind.

4. Paul’s universal texts indicate an accomplished salvation for the entire human race in Christ. But since this salvation is a gift from God, it is made effective by faith only to the believers in Christ [Romans 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5:18-21; 1 Timothy 2:6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9].

5. In most cases, Paul’s subjective application of the in Christ motive to believers, as well as himself, is based on an objective truth already accomplished in Christ [Galatians 2:20; 6:14; 2 Corinthians 5:14. Ephesians 1:3-6; Colosians 2:20; 2 Timothy 2:11]. Faith does not put us into Christ but rather means abiding in Christ [John 15:4-8].

6. To Paul, baptism, as a subjective experience, is always “into Christ.” By it, the believer is confessing his or her faith obedience to an objective truth that took place some 2,000 years ago in Christ and Him crucified, buried, and resurrected [Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-8].

* All these facts point to the in Christ motif as the very heart of the gospel message Paul preached in his evangelistic efforts. When the good news of salvation is presented in the context of the in Christ motif, men and women will come to the realization that God has already reconciled them to Himself [read Jn. 12:32]. What is left is for them to be reconciled to God through faith in His Son [2 Corinthians 5:18-20]. Incidentally, it is this goodness of God that leads to true repentance and conversion [Romans 2:4.]

I tend to agree with you that this verse is saying that when Christ died for all humanity, all of humanity died in Christ. The same as when Adam sinned, God considered all of humanity as having sinned.

However, given the context of 2 Cor. 5: 15-17, it appears that verse 14 may be understood to have reference to all who have put their faith in Him.

What are all the verses you know of that teach all of humanity died in Christ or are already justified? I know already of Rom. 5: 16, 19.

Also, do you know of clear passages in the Spirit of prophecy which speak of all humanity's having died in Christ or as having been justified 2000 years ago?

I can give references....


When the voice of the angel was heard saying, “Thy Father calls thee,” He who had said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again,” “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity did not die. Humanity died….

Now the question is whose humanity?

By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man [mankind]. [How?] This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. ...

...The Saviour has purchased the fallen race with His own blood.”