Jesus predicted two thousand years ago that thus it would be. "The time is coming that whosoever kills you will think that he offers God service," He said (John 16:2). History confirms His prophecy. How could we, as Christians, have been so blind, so callous, so indifferent to human life? Jesus distills the answer down to its core. "These things they will do to you," He continues, "because they have not known the Father nor Me" (v. 3).

If it is sin for us to kill, then it is equally sin for God to kill! Otherwise God plays the hypocrite!

"The Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" (Luke 9:56).

There was nothing in Jesus' life to correspond to a dark or destructive side in God. This no one can deny. Yet the life of Jesus holds insights into God's ultimate plans for dealing with the terrible problem of sin. When spurned or subjected to disrespect, He simply walked away. Where our carnal humanity would wreak a powerful kind of vengeance on our tormentors, He who healed the sick and raised the dead, who had infinite resources at His disposal to deal with any enemy, gave us the example of His gracious habit of departing from where He was unwanted.

It is when God removes Himself that natural calamities are prone to happen. It is when God withdraws that the "deceiver" comes in to paint his attributes on our loving, selfless non-aggressive God. This can be proven again and again.

In order to understand how God intends to deal with sin, we must look at how He dealt with His own Son, Jesus Christ, the great Sin-bearer. Here's the typical point of view:

"I [God] will strike the Shepherd. . . . We esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God" (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

But Jesus' own words give a glimpse of what really happened:

"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Mark 15:34).


"He [God] that spared not his own Son, but delivered [abandoned] Him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" (Romans 8:32, KJV; Romans 4:24, 25).

It was the Father who delivered Him (or released Him) to the destructive forces around Him. (See also Matthew 26:2, 14, 15; 27:18; Mark 10:33, 34; 14:10; 15:1, 11; Luke 22:4; Acts 2:23.)

This is how God works....He does not kill - He does not torture - He simply removes Himself from the scene after one's continual rejection. As I said, what kills is the results of sin - be it a world that is falling apart or Satan himself working through the unconverted.

The Lords gives, the Lord takes away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

If God creates life, He has a perfect right to take it away. Romans 9: 18-22.

God is not a human being subject to laws made for humans. If God had destroyed all of the human race when they rebelled, He would have been right to do it.

Then the woman can abort her baby because she created that life. If you say God created her baby then God creates sinners. Hence then God would be the author of sin.



Just like our government, huh? They have rules for us and rules for them...called loopholes.

No, that's playing the hypocrite! God is agape....It is not an attribute of God, but who He is. He is love and therefore it is impossible for God to do something against His own law of love.

Rob

Does the woman OWN the baby? Doesn't that baby really belong to God, who made it?

Don't we all really BELONG to God in the ultimate sense?

Do mothers make life?

God makes life. Big difference there.

Look...am not defending abortion, but I am taking your defense of sin (in your case killing) to it's logical conclusion.

And BTW, God didn't create me as I exist today. He created me when He created Adam. In Adam God made the whole human race. That creation was perfect...it was complete, until the fall.

If you insist that God created me in my mother's womb then God is the author of sin. Why? Ps 51:5

Rob

I thought that you were going to come back and refute my statement. Okay, I guess not, so I'll do it myself:

Ps 139:13 For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother’s womb.

There it is, Rob....You are just wrong. Reading Jack again?

Huh, this isn't easy talking to myself, but....

Anyway, that's the quote you should have used, John.

But, if you had, well, I would have said - "Read the context!"

Verse 14 I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;Wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very well.

15 My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth.

Hmmm? "made in secret"? No one was around. And then David says, "skillfully wrought (made) in the depths of the earth."

What does that mean?

Who was around when the Lord was creating Adam? No one! That's made in secret. From where was Adam made? The earth...the dust of the ground.

So you were made...not in your mother's womb, but rather from the earth when God created Adam.

Acts 17:26 He [God] made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth....


Note, from one man [Adam] God made the entire human race. Note also that Eve came from man....She came from Adam's side. She was bone of his bone....

"For man did not come from woman, but woman from man" [1 Cor 11:8]

So, you were created when God created Adam. In Adam you were made perfect. Hence God can't be accused of creating sin!

Now Adam fell and with him the human race. He fell before he had children. So the only thing that Adam could pass on was a sinful, condemned life. Simply stated we are the multiplication of Adam's fallen life.

What makes us fallen and sinful?

We are born separated from God. He is not dwelling in our spirit (inner mind) by birth. Instead we are born with a fallen nature, which means we are born in iniquity.


Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin [iniquity] my mother conceived me.

Paul goes on to tell us that this iniquity dwells in us...i.e., our members...our bodies.

If it was something that could be surgically removed your doctor could remove it, but it is at our DNA level. By Adam's fall we were made sinners.

Again, what is iniquity? The root meaning of this word is “crooked” or “bent.” Scripture uses it to describe our natural spiritual condition. The term iniquity does not primarily refer to an act of sin but to a condition of sinfulness.

As a result of the Fall, men and women are by nature spiritually “bent.” Love of self is the driving force of our natures. Paul defines this as “the law of sin and death” that is at work in our lives [Romans 8:2; cf. 7:23]. It is this condition that underlies all our sinning and makes us slaves to sin [see Romans 3:9-12; 7:14] by birth.

Now I don't recommend this movie (unless you see the TV version), but in the movie "The Devil's Advocate" the following is said:

Vanity...is definitely my favorite sin. Kevin, it's so basic. Self-love, The all-natural opiate! It's not that you didn't care for Mary Ann, Kevin...it's just that you were a little more involved with someone else: Yourself!


Now usually Hollywood doesn't get it right, but this one part was right on the mark!

If we are honest (and a lot of us aren't), it's not that we don't care about our neighbor, it's just that we care a bit more about our needs...our desires. That's our problem. That's how we are born. We love self...and if that self-love is semi-satisfied, then we might share a bit with our neighbors. That's iniquity!

Rob

Robert, be honest. Are you really just trying to prove that you are good in debate by taking there weirdest, and most unsupported view possible on every given subject?

Gen. 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

I have also said plainly that if God stops protecting someone and as a result that person died, then God would be killing that person.

And I'm not going to the electric chair because I have not committed a crime that calls for the death sentence in the country where I live. I guess you would say I'm boasting now.

No, what I'm proving is that bad religion, such as yours, actually produces good atheist.



Terrible....You remind me of what Adam said to the Lord when he sinned:

Gen 2:11 "Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?” 12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

So Adam was blaming God for sin. And like Adam, you too are blaming Him for sin ....That just goes to show that you are ignorant concerning spiritual things.

Why does God says things such as, "I will destroy man whom I have created" or "I killed Saul" or "I the Lord create Evil" or "Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"

Does God kill? Does God causes infants to be born blind or deaf? Does God cause diseases? The answer is no!

The Bible teaches that God is sovereign. What does that mean? It means nothing happens without God's permission. Did God know Lucifer would eventually sin and thereby become Satan? Yes! Then isn't God to blame for sin? No, but throughout the Bible He does assume the blame until "the day of atonement."

When you deal with sin in a legal sense, as a transgression of the law, there are three things involved. First there is guilt. Then there is punishment. Then there is responsibility.

The cross took care of the guilt and punishment, but the cross didn’t take care of “who is responsible for sin?” So throughout the Bible you see these statements that make it look like God is the bad guy.

So how did this problem come about? Lucifer started to question God’s agape. He saw it as to restrictive. Slowly He became less satisfied with his position. He wanted to move up the corporate ladder.

Thus Lucifer began to develop what the Bible calls “iniquity”, which is the opposite of God’s agape. Instead of seeking the good of those around him, Lucifer began to bend his agape back towards himself. Hence, the development of self-love – a u-turn agape!

As I said, Lucifer saw God’s love as too restrictive. Instead, he rationalized, the love of self would a great improvement over this love called agape.

Well, you know the story….Pretty soon the two systems, agape &. self-love, collided. This led to open revolt in heaven. But God was not going to allow Lucifer’s theory of love to be tested in heaven. So he and 1/3 of the angles were expelled.

Now fast-forward to this newly created planet called “earth”. God allowed Lucifer, now Satan, to test his theory. Ellen White tells us (and it sounds plausible) that he went to many worlds before coming here. Our parents failed because they didn’t take God at His word. And so here we are.

Now who is to blame? You see God had a conundrum: He knew Lucifer’s heart…He knew the results of iniquity (self-love), but the sinless worlds didn’t. If God had abandoned Lucifer and the angels (which results in death) then all His created being would have worship God out of fear. So the only way God could legitimately expose Lucifer’s theory is to put it to the test.

Because God is sovereign…because allowed Lucifer to develop his own version of love, God assumes the blame until the “day of atonement.”