3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first [i.e., from Christ], and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Does God cause believers to be deceived or does God assume the blame for them being deceived?

Rob

Verse 11 signifies that God will allow people to believe lies if they want to and if they reject truth. He gives them up to their sins if they want to keep them. God doesn't force us to give up sin. There are other verses in the Old Testament and the New which illustrate this, as, for instance, Hosea 4:17-- "Ephraim is joined to idols; let him alone." And in Romans 1: 24, 26, where it speaks of God "giving up" those who love their sins so that they believe their sins are not sins.

When God sends clear, wonderful truth but it is rejected, this great truth may be described accurately as "powerful delusion" because it shows how profoundly deceived the person is.

God caused the flood according to Gen 6 and 2Peter 3. I gotta believe he meant to do it once mankind reached that point.

Bob

According to James each one is tempted and then yields to temptation. According to Romans 3 the total depravity of the sinful nature results in sinning unless we have chosen Christ and submit to the Holy Spirit's work of Romans 8.

But getting back to the "point" of the Day of Atonement -- which is really talking about the "point" of the judgment in Dan 7 and the judgment in 2Cor 5:8-10.

We talk about the timing for it to start -- Oct 22, 1844
We talk about the work of Christ in heaven for us (2Cor 5, Dan 7, Heb 4, 2Tim 2 ... etc)
And we talk about the fact that salvation "status" is only changed by justification -- i.e when a person becomes saved -- born again (call it what you will), Salvation status is not changed by the I.J -- Day of Atonement event.

So that leaves us with this question -- what is the significance of the I.J or DoT doctrine beyond "F.Y.I"?? Is all of this really over the joy of having a nicer picture of what goes on before we reach the 2nd coming?

Remember there will be zillions of saints that never knew about this detail who get to heaven and then God tells them "hey - I want to tell you about some interesting stuff we were doing up here just before the 2nd coming ". To which those saints will say "Wow! What a wonderful system you guys have up here. Nice to know it is all in good hands".

I find it interesting that this is the point where we seem to leave the discussion even on the best of days.

in Christ,

Bob

No John, it doesn't say this. You added! Here's what it says:

"God shall send them strong delusion"

Try again!



Again, out of context. You need to stay within the context. This verse jumping...what I call connect-a-verse...is bad Bible study. You must always examine the context...always!

Here's the context: "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved".

Who is "the truth"? Right - Christ!

They rejected Christ....Nothing about sin or breaking the law here.

You are not a sinner by outward sins...you are a sinner because you share Adam's fallen life. You are born outside God and the only thing you know is sin (i.e., selfishness)

Good Point Bob.

So shall the time of the end be.

Just as God waited until the wickedness of the earth had reached a point of no return ... of complete wickednes before the flood ... God intervened. So will be the time of His second coming. The Earth will come to a point of complete wickedness and God will put an end to it all. Enough is Enough.

Some would have it that a certain group will achieve some kind of 'perfection' in the last days ... and THAT is what God is waiting for.

But look at another example of God's intervention ... Sodom and Gomorrah. God was going to destroy it because of it's wickedness ... not because there were a few righteous.

I agree that the close of probation thing is clear about mankind filling up their cup of iniquity. Seems like Rev 16 keeps pointing to the fact that they do not repent no matter what God sends. (kinda reminds us of the end of Matt 23).

In any case Matt 24 says "This Gospel of the kindgom shall be preached in all the world and THEN shall the end come".

So again - someting that the saints do to "look for and hasten" that day -- but does not take away from the rebellion of earth and the filling up of that cup of iniquity as you point out.

in Christ,

Bob

Well it is certainly true that all sin and all need salvation. I also agree that all have a sinful nature so all need a Savior.

Christ is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole world" - all we have to do is believe and accept Christ as we are told in Romans 10 then walk that Romans 8 walk where "by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh"

in Christ,

Bob

Luke 22:41 He [Jesus] withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.

What is this cup?

Rev 16:19 And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.

Who does it? God? No!!!

Who had Jesus murdered?

Luke 22:53 When I was with you day after day in the temple, you did not lay hands on me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”

Why didn't anyone lay hands on Christ previous to this point?

"...no one laid a hand on him [Jesus], because his time had not yet come." [John 7:30]

What happened that allowed these earthly powers to lay hands on Christ?

God abandoned Christ. Why? Because He who personally knew no sin (as God) became sin (as the son of man).

This illustrates how God works in dealing with sin. Does He kill? Does He drown folks? Does He burn folks? No! God simply retreats...He leaves...He abandons.

The results? Mayhem and death!