Groaning a bit, now. This is not where I wanted to focus my attention, as I've said. Right now, innocent people are being falsely accused and condemned, like in the Inquisition, and no one seems to be taking it to heart.



You assume it would have said that. Or it could have said:

Gen. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

We're not talking about a cloud but a mass that would have separated this planet from the rest of the Universe, and preserved the water content on this planet. And I didn't make this idea up. I heard it from YEC, God fearing, 6 day Creation scientists.

But let's consider the alternatives. Here are 2 things:

1. If you say the sky was crystal clear and if there where stars, they would have appeared, then you say that all the Universe was created the 4th day. For most of the stars we see are really galaxies. Some are actually suns, like the sun we have.

So whatever suns the other worlds orbit around, must be so far away, you wouldn't see them from this earth, even with no atmosphere at all, as if from the moon, with no sunlight or anything at all to interfere with your view.

But in the astronomy lessons I've seen, by Creationist scientists, shows the spectrum of the stars as mostly red, indicating they are moving away from us. This would lead us to believe the center of the Universe is near us, assuming the Universe would expand from it's center.

Then EGW says Christ will come from the belt of Orion. She doesn't seem to suggest they would have to travel from beyond any visible galaxy. It seems to suggest the current throne of God is somewhere near by.

Either God has been creating worlds near-by His throne, and the far off galaxies we see are like a wilderness, or He has moved His throne to be near this world, and those worlds would would be so far away, it's unimaginable.

Then if these galaxies where created on the 4th day, then none of them would be inhabited. Why so much wilderness? That's just alot. Seems like a waste.


2. Also you would be saying the 4th day is different from the other days. In all the other days, God doesn't create any matter, but we only see a manipulation of matter. The dirt and water where already here. The dividing of the waters to create the atmosphere. The dry land appearing. The earth bringing forth the plants. The beasts and man where formed from the dirt. Man was formed from the dirt. In none of these things, did God create matter from nothing.

Except in the 4th day, where God creates all the galaxies in the Universe, the sun, moon, and planets... from nothing. That's alot of matter. Billions of times more matter than was manipulated here on this earth.

If I where stuck defending this theory, I would try and suggest there was a dark cloud, that had as much matter as the sun, and the whole solar system, like a great cloud of matter in space. Then God created the Sun, moon, and planets from this matter. I think there are such giant dark clouds of matter in space. And as far as we know, there could be a planet in there with water on it. But then I guess it would freeze without a thick atmosphere.

That would account for why you couldn't see the stars from space, from the surface of this planet with no atmosphere. You don't have to say God made the stars the 4th day. It just says "he made the stars also", not indicating when they where made.

Actually, the phrase "he made" was added, so "the stars also" would mean the stars would rule together with the moon:

Gen. 1:21 ...and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.

Not that any of this is impossible. But I'm not convinced that it's the most likely thing, or makes the most sense, or that it's what the Bible plainly teaches.



Exactly. It's all about perspective. The perspective we get is the surface of the waters, where the Spirit of God is.

And from our perspective, the Sun, Moon, and stars are in the sky, the firmament, which is where the clouds are.

First of all - I am not arguing that those who take your position are not YEC creationist or that they do not believe in a 6 day creation of all life on earth.

We simply differ on the detail of what it means to "make TWO great lights" on day four and on what the term "darkness covered the surface" means.

I believe that each time evening and morning are mentioned in the text of Gen 1 -- it is "calling the darkness night" (see vs 5) and that darkness is "still" called night on day 6. That means that even though you could see stars at night on day 6 (a point on which we all agree) it is still called night -- it is stil called darkness.

Your argument requires that 'night' did not occur any time except on days 1 2 and 3 since on day 4 stars became visible for the first time and that was light.

However I do not think the text is telling us that we don't have night any more.

I agree with you that the stars were not made on day 4.

in Christ,

Bob

I do not read that in my Bible, sorry. Gen. 1:1 reads, "In the beginning...". What beginning is He talking about? The beginning of the universe or the beginning of the earth?

Obviously the earth was covered with water (thats what it says), but I believe that it was all ice. The Bible just calls it the "face of the deep". The light that was created on the first day may have been whatever was needed to melt the ice, evaporate some of the new liquid water into the atmosphere and dry the new land.

Has anyone considered that our sun may have been created billions of years before, along with the globe we now call earth? God says that He created two lights on day 4 and to do that all He would have had to do was to light the "fire" on the sun.



My humble opinion.

It appears to me that it means in the beginning of human history or of the world as humans know it. That would be creation week, at the start of which God made the world inhabitable for mankind. I agree with you that it doesn't necessarily mean that it was when all matter came into being for the first time.

I guess I see it a little differently. It just seems to me that this may be talking about way back at the very beginning of created things, long before God created this earth.

I agree - that is possible for Gen 1:1 - a global statement that God is the Creator of ALL things -- with Gen 1:2 through 2:3 showing the 7 real days (i.e Bible really true and trustworthy about events it describes) in which God formed the living inhabitable environment on earth and all life on earth and then rested.

As well as creating the Sun moon (and possibly the planets of our solar system in those same 6 real days)

in Christ,

Bob

By setting the sun on fire, or at least making it much brighter, all the other planets would become visible (although they may have already been there) just not able to be seen even if there were people here.

Not really important though, just a thought. What is important is that God is the creator of everything that was created.

So what was NOT created? (God is the only "thing" I know of.)

True -- when he said 'MADE two great lights" he might have meant to says "caused them to start shining" or "caused the clouds to thin"?. I wonder how Moses' readers at the foot of Sinai would have taken the "God MADE two great lights" statement in the text? Do you think that Moses was leading these shepherds and freed-slaves to think they were MADE then or is this the language they typically used for "caused something to start shining" or "cleared away the fog"?

in Christ,

Bob

Heh. You're basically using all the same kinds of arguments that others use in explaining other parts of the same chapter, but you want those parts of the chapter to be absolutely literal and you're happy for these parts to be figurative or 'point of view' statements.

There's really no point in discussing any further, since your entire position is internally inconsistent to the extreme. It boils down to "I believe what I believe, and don't try to tell me any different". The Scripture and every other argument is bent to that end.

Not true - you are not reading "the details" in my post where I point out the problem with not taking the "God MADE TWO great Lights" statement as reliably true as-is not simply "God cleared up fog".

details -- can't live without 'em.

in Christ,

Bob