#188210 - 09/24/08 11:07 AM
Re: Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?
[Re: carolaa]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10453
Loc: CA
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D. Martyn Lloyd Jones, a highly regarded protestant theologian and pastor, wrote:
"'Ah but,' you say, ‘has not the Roman Catholic Church changed? You are simply looking back, you are speaking as if you lived in the 16th century-- don't you realize you are living in the 20th century?' My answer is quite simple. The proudest boast of the Roman Catholic Church is this, that she never changes, Semper eadem. How can she change? If she changes she will be admitting that she was wrong in the past -- but she was saying then that she was infallible, and that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ and that he cannot make a mistake. If she says that she is capable of change she is denying her central claim! She does not say that she is changing, and she never will. The Church of Rome remains the same. If anything, she is even worse. She has 'added' things to what she taught in the 16th century, such as Papal infallibility, etc. No, there is no change in the Church of Rome. And if there ever is one great world Church it will be because the Church of Rome has absorbed all the rest and swallowed them in their ignorance!"
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#188287 - 09/24/08 09:42 PM
Re: Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?
[Re: olger]
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Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 1681
Loc: Texas
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Actually, I'm not that interested in the subject of the Jesuits. But all the lies you mentioned as being told by the Catholic Church were from the Dark Ages. Do you know of any lies the Church has told, on record, within the last 100 years or so? I just don't think it's a very solid case to use evidence from 500 years ago. Yes, the Pope said evolution was a viable explanation of origins. They still say they had the right to change the sabbath (and their evolution posit is no doubt aimed at weakening Sabbath). They still claim to speak ex-cathedra (for God). They recently said they were sorry for killing those nasty "heretics." They are sorry that they got caught in our modern world of political correctness. and others, OG That's all opinion - can't be proved either way as a lie or not.
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#188289 - 09/24/08 09:49 PM
Re: Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 1681
Loc: Texas
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D. Martyn Lloyd Jones, a highly regarded protestant theologian and pastor, wrote:
"'Ah but,' you say, ‘has not the Roman Catholic Church changed? You are simply looking back, you are speaking as if you lived in the 16th century-- don't you realize you are living in the 20th century?' My answer is quite simple. The proudest boast of the Roman Catholic Church is this, that she never changes, Semper eadem. How can she change? If she changes she will be admitting that she was wrong in the past -- but she was saying then that she was infallible, and that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ and that he cannot make a mistake. If she says that she is capable of change she is denying her central claim! She does not say that she is changing, and she never will. The Church of Rome remains the same. If anything, she is even worse. She has 'added' things to what she taught in the 16th century, such as Papal infallibility, etc. No, there is no change in the Church of Rome. And if there ever is one great world Church it will be because the Church of Rome has absorbed all the rest and swallowed them in their ignorance!" Yes, I'm familiar with that quote, although I can never remember who said it. Still, it sounds like an opinion - no examples of any lies they have told in recent history. Are you saying that there are Catholics out there who still say Protestants have 4 rows of teeth, or whatever? I mean, if the Church never changes, wouldn't that have to be the case? Have they said anything in recent history that can be proved to be a lie?
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#188290 - 09/24/08 09:49 PM
Re: Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?
[Re: carolaa]
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Registered: 10/18/02
Posts: 623
Loc: Houston, Texas
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Actually, I'm not that interested in the subject of the Jesuits. But all the lies you mentioned as being told by the Catholic Church were from the Dark Ages. Do you know of any lies the Church has told, on record, within the last 100 years or so? I just don't think it's a very solid case to use evidence from 500 years ago. Yes, the Pope said evolution was a viable explanation of origins. They still say they had the right to change the sabbath (and their evolution posit is no doubt aimed at weakening Sabbath). They still claim to speak ex-cathedra (for God). They recently said they were sorry for killing those nasty "heretics." They are sorry that they got caught in our modern world of political correctness. and others, OG That's all opinion - can't be proved either way as a lie or not. I side with OG or this. All that stuff is common knowledge.
_________________________
Jesus Christ was a community organizer, Pontius Pilate was a governor.
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
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#188294 - 09/24/08 10:07 PM
Re: Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?
[Re: Kountzer]
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Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 1681
Loc: Texas
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Being common knowledge doesn't make them lies. I'm talking about things that can be proven as lies - not just opinions we disagree with.
Examples: Saying Protestants have 4 rows of teeth is a lie that can be easily disproven. Saying evolution is a viable explanation of origins is an opinion that cannot be disproven.
I hate to keep harping at this, but I think accusing a group of telling lies - and then having no examples of it since the 1500s - is a pretty lame accusation.
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#188297 - 09/24/08 10:37 PM
Re: Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1691
Loc: Oregon
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>>D. Martyn Lloyd Jones, a highly regarded protestant theologian and pastor, wrote:
The proudest boast of the Roman Catholic Church is this, that she never changes, Semper eadem. How can she change? If she changes she will be admitting that she was wrong in the past -- but she was saying then that she was infallible, and that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ and that he cannot make a mistake.<<
I think the following rather puts some perspective on the above-noted “highly regarded protestant theologian and pastor”. I suppose it is not for nuthin’ that he is noted as ‘protesting’.
I remember, not too many years past, that Pope John Paul II admitted-to and apologized for ‘errors’ of the Universal Church.
“On no fewer than 94 occasions, according to a the Italian journalist Luigi Accattoli, Pope John Paul II has publicly admitted that the Catholic Church was guilty of errors in the past. Now, in what Religion News Service calls "a move unprecedented in two millenniums of Roman Catholic history," John Paul has issued a summation of all these apologies. He read the document, "Memory and Reconciliation: The Church and the Mistakes of the Past," at a "solemn ceremony" on March 12, (year 2000) the first Sunday of Lent. A preparatory document, outlining the conditions and limits of the forthcoming apology, was also issued by the Vatican.
Among the Church's errors for which John Paul apologized are divisions within Christianity, forced conversions, ecclesiastical use (and approval) of violence, and anti-Jewish prejudice. The document also says that past errors by Catholics lie at the root of such "evils of today" as the spread of atheism and ethical relativism.”
[...]
Furthermore, John Paul's apology puts him in the position of condemning such institutions as the Inquisition and the Crusades, ... [ed.jasd]
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#188299 - 09/24/08 10:58 PM
Re: Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?
[Re: carolaa]
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 1691
Loc: Oregon
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>>I hate to keep harping at this, but I think accusing a group of telling lies...<< Using the above as segue, I note: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" 'bear' in the above commandment is also translated as 'hear'- as in "Thou shalt not hear false witness..." Seems to me that should a .Org find it impossible to adhere to the one commandment, then, it is moot for that .Org to pontificate upon any other commandment. IMHO That said, yes, I believe that the interests of the Jesuits and the interests of this .org or that .Org - do not coincide. That said, I smile to find that an almost [internationally] unnoticed .Org should indulge in the frisson of a constant fear of sheltering within its ranks an 'embedded' Jesuit 
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#188303 - 09/24/08 11:11 PM
Re: Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?
[Re: rush4hire]
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Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.
Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 13254
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
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1. Ellen White
We probably better start with Ellen White:
Originally Posted By: Ellen_White Throughout Christendom, Protestantism was menaced by formidable foes. The first triumphs of the Reformation past, Rome summoned new forces, hoping to accomplish its destruction. At this time the order of the Jesuits was created, the most cruel, unscrupulous, and powerful (1.) of all the champions of popery. Cut off from earthly ties and human interests, dead to the claims of natural affection, reason and conscience wholly silenced, they knew no rule, no tie, but that of their order, and no duty but to extend its power (2.). (See Appendix.) The gospel of Christ had enabled its adherents to meet danger and endure suffering, undismayed by cold, hunger, toil, and poverty, to uphold the banner of truth in face of the rack, the dungeon, and the stake. To combat these forces, Jesuitism inspired its followers with a fanaticism (3.) that enabled them to endure like dangers, and to oppose to the power of truth all the weapons of deception (4.). There was no crime too great for them to commit, no deception too base for them to practice (5.), no disguise too difficult for them to assume (6.). Vowed to perpetual poverty and humility, it was their studied aim to secure wealth and power, to be devoted to the overthrow of Protestantism (7.), and the re-establishment of the papal supremacy (8.). {GC 234.2} When appearing as members of their order, they wore a garb of sanctity, visiting prisons and hospitals, ministering to the sick and the poor, professing to have renounced the world, and bearing the sacred name of Jesus, who went about doing good. But under this blameless exterior the most criminal and deadly purposes were often concealed. (9.) It was a fundamental principle of the order that the end justifies the means. By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination (10.), were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church. Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of state, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations [-- and now churches --] (11.). They became servants to act as spies upon their masters. They established colleges for the sons of princes and nobles, and schools for the common people; and the children of Protestant parents were drawn into an observance of popish rites (12.). All the outward pomp and display of the Romish worship was brought to bear to confuse the mind and dazzle and captivate the imagination, and thus the liberty for which the fathers had toiled and bled was betrayed by the sons. The Jesuits rapidly spread themselves over Europe, and wherever they went, there followed a revival of popery. {GC 235.1}
So now, if Ellen White says Jesuits:
1. Are powerful. 2. Since their conception, to this day, have been working for nothing more than to extend their power and influence. 3. Are fanatical. 4. Have all the weapons of deception. 5. Practice the most base deceptions. 6. Assume the most difficult disguises. 7. Are devoted to the overthrow of Protestantism. 8. Are devoted to re-establish the supremacy of the Papacy. 9. While doing good deeds, conceal the most criminal and deadly purposes. 10. Lie, steal, commit perjury, assassinate. 11. Assume various disguises to climb up to high positions to even shape the policies of nations. 12. Establish colleges where the children of Princes and Nobles are drawn into the observance of popish rites.
To say otherwise, you must reject Ellen White. Um, so, if I reject that these are current practices, I am rejecting EGW? I dont think so... ©1984-2008 Chick Publications, Inc. All rights reserved. Some portions of www.chick.com are copyrighted by others and reproduced by permission, as indicated by copyright notices on individual pages.Doesn't this say everything?
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.
George Bernard Shaw
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#188467 - 09/25/08 05:54 AM
Re: Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?
[Re: carolaa]
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Registered: 10/18/02
Posts: 623
Loc: Houston, Texas
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Being common knowledge doesn't make them lies. I'm talking about things that can be proven as lies - not just opinions we disagree with.
Examples: Saying Protestants have 4 rows of teeth is a lie that can be easily disproven. Saying evolution is a viable explanation of origins is an opinion that cannot be disproven.
I hate to keep harping at this, but I think accusing a group of telling lies - and then having no examples of it since the 1500s - is a pretty lame accusation. Creation scientists are disproving evolution all the time. There voices in this matter are drowned out by the overwhelming number of pro-evolution scientists who are obsessively biased against the idea of God, or that God created everything. DB
_________________________
Jesus Christ was a community organizer, Pontius Pilate was a governor.
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
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