More was declared Patron Saint of politicians and statesmen by Pope John Paul II in 1980. No doubt this is why they are celebrating him.

They would doubtless be shocked to think that anyone believes the celebration means that they agree with everything Thomas More did.

Thomas More, ironically, was also the first man to go before the English parliament and call for free speech.

Yes, they do indeed. Both very good writers. Which books do you have by Martin?

keys, and the jesuit book. I have never read a book written by George f will, but I read his op ed columns occasionally, and I watch him of tv, usually on sunday mornings. He is very erudite. Martin was also. I don't agree with everything they say, but I admire their ways of expressing themselves.

DB

How much of the Keys book have you read?

Have you read much of Marx or about Marxism?

Personally I agree with the doctrinal aspects of the posts, which point out the errors in Catholic teachings, but I do feel that sometimes your posts are too harsh in their thrusts against Catholics. We have to remember that God has millions of His honest, sincere people in the Catholic church, and if we talk in a way that comes across to them as unloving and unChristian, it will impress them in the wrong way, and we could drive them away rather than attract them to Christ. I have many in-laws who are Catholic, and they are some of the kindest and loving people I know. In fact, I'm ashamed to say that they often show greater thoughtfulness and kindness than some members of my own church.

Let us never forget that many of the Catholics love Jesus and are just as true to Him in their own way as we are. God takes into account that they don't know all that He's revealed to us. But let's never give them an excuse to accuse us of not being loving Christians.

It's fine on the threads to attack false teachings and doctrines but we should try to keep away as much as possible from making sharp thrusts that would be easy to misinterpret as being oppose to Christ's law of love.

They are in bed with Rome. They don't care because they want the power and glory and prestige Rome offers. They are no different from any of the kings of the earth who have committed fornication with her. She's a mass murderer, and a liar, but they can overlook that for the power she offers.

That's evil. That's what love of power will do to you.

Now, if they want to defend themselves, let them come here and do so. Let me prove them wrong. What are you? Their lawyer?

If they prove me wrong, I'll apologize.

Something you may or may not understand, John:

John 18:37 ...Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Daniel 12:10 ...none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.



What does all this mean? They can't hear us, John. God has shut them out from our counsel. The loud cry won't hurt the wicked, because they won't hear it. Those who are coming out of Babylon won't be hurt. They will hear and know it is their duty to come out.

If they stir up persecution, well then you'll just have to suffer persecution. If you will follow this prophecy, you will be leaving the results with God:



They cannot remain silent, except at the peril of their souls. Christ's ambassadors have nothing to do with consequences. They must perform their duty and leave results with God. {GC 609.1}

I remember my first year in LE work. I was 23. We where talking to a girl in her apartment. I seemed to be getting no where. My partner said strait to me like: "Some people can't hear because the Devil has control." Right in front of the girl!

But she was oblivious to him! It was like he was an invisible angel. She did not hear what he said at all. The devil was blocking out everything we where saying, keeping her captive. Well I knew he meant I should close and stop wasting time there.

I'm not sure if you can relate to an experience like that, or have any of your own experience that can compare.



I'd say that's ironic. How do you say "free speech", and then burn Bibles and everyone's writings who won't partake of the corruption of Papal tyranny? And then burn people at the stake who try to exercise free speech?



This thread has nothing to do with the doctrines of the Catholic faith..





And that's why God is saying:

Rev. 18:4 Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.



First of all, seeing that you haven't been reading, I don't know how much value I should attribute to your criticism.

My knee-jerk reaction is:

Matt. 16:23 ...Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

How do I know it's not the Devil using you to throw a stumbling block before me?

You guys offer alot of criticism, but where are your suggestions? You all have so much more experience in evangelism and soul winning than I do. So what am I doing wrong?

Why not quote the line you think is too offensive, and tell me how you would say it. Show me how it's done.

What are you doing to get this 3rd angel's message to a loud cry? I'll do whatever you're doing, if it's working.

It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness. When the darkness has to be pointed out it can be done with love. There are many beautiful Catholic people that do not deserve to be lumped into the same catagory as "a system". There are well-meaning people who do not understand things the same way we do, but one attracts with honey not vinegar. Truth can be presented in a loving way.

[putting on my moderator's hat]

First off, try being a bit more human, instead of a religious fanatic.

Religious fanatics are fine as long as they are human...

Second, remove the "I make personal attacks" tagline...if you are not interested in hearing someone, then this will not get you the bonding that you need to make your point valid to the other person. Beside that, you are not practicing the grace God intended you to have.

3rd...be nice..practice net-ettiquit rules. There's a reason that they are there. If you don't know, let me explain it in a simple sentence...It provides credibility. If you are rude, and practice a bit of sarcasim at every oppertunity, or are just plain anti-common sense, you will not have much credibility. Remember that Grace that God is supposed to have imbued you with...well, it's a good idea to practice it...And practice makes perfect...[that alone is worth a minimum of 10 years of practice before being rated a beginner]

[neil now takes off his moderator's hat and moves on]

I have my moderator's hat on now, Rush.

I'd like to add to what Neil, Amelia, Taylor, Bravus, and a few others have said already:

Yes, I agree that God is saying , "Come out of her, my people," but the way you are going about it on this thread won't make Catholics want to come out. Your posts only make them think that you represent extremism and fanaticism. They resist fanaticism or what appears to them as fanaticism.

What Catholics want to see and hear-- what attracts them to Adventists-- is Bible truth, love for Christ, thoughtfulness towards others, and practical Christianity.

What you are presenting on this thread would only make them feel that they don't want to have anything to do with what you are representing. They wouldn't recognize the Catholic Church-- which they know from experience-- in what you are posting.

If you want to post things about the Catholic Church, try to do it in a way that is less confrontational and more conversational. The important thing here is to exchange views and ideas as kindly as possible, and not browbeat or intimidate them.

We have lots of different, and even conflicting, viewpoints expressed on the Forum, so the one thing that must be insisted on is that people treat each other as respectfully and thoughtfully as possible. The idea is to do to others as you would have them do to you, even (or especially?) when people don't agree with you.

It's not a point of honor to make personal attacks on people (noticing your tag-line). If members do that and don't stop-- or when they continue to bring private arguments or old grudges on the public forum-- after they've been told several times to stop doing it, they shouldn't be surprised if they get suspended or banned. We want to make the Forum a welcome place for people to come and post their ideas without fear of being personally attacked or called names, etc.

I flirted around with marx and marxism in my late teens and early 20s. The iron curtain and the ussr were still around. I had some college who attended Univ of Texas who were into marx. It was like a religion to them. They would loan me books to read. I would read some passage, but I really couldn't get into it.
I had been exposed the adventist teaching early, but I didn't want to surrender to all that. I was looking for ansswrs elsewhere. Eventually I joined the church, and I left all that behind. The friends with the marxist books became professionals and capitalist consumers. They left all that behind also.
Martin does an excellent job explaining what marxixm is or was all about.