That's not the form of rendition I was talking about. Bringing people to trial in the US is something that I'd be very happy to see. Trials for the prisoners at Guantanamo would be a great place to start. I'm talking about sending people *out* of the US expressly to be tortured.


Who? When? Who since WW2 has America rescued? Name one people. (Ahmed Chalabi doesn't count.)

>>Trials for the prisoners at Guantanamo would be a great place to start.<<

Sheesh, isn’t it good form to hold detainees of war – until a resolution or the cessation of hostilities? Anyway, given those parameters as applying to the war on terrorism – those guys should probably be in Gitmo the rest of their lives.

>>I'm talking about sending people *out* of the US expressly to be tortured.<<

Dr Paul Joseph Goebels is alive and well in Hollywood! Ain there a song like that? Anyway, I agree that – should that be actually occurring on any scale other than minimally – it should be stopped. That said, that is in principle only – given the fact that all nations have, do, and will continue – to implement torture to an extent both large and small. It's a fact of life. Reality.

I do not condone the practice of torture other than in very severely limited circumstances: the hypothetical weighing of the needs of the many against the ‘discomfort’ of the one, or few – for example.

>>Who? When? Who since WW2 has America rescued? Name one people. (Ahmed Chalabi doesn't count.)<<

Y’know, we dumped Chalabi; and wouldn’t you know? he’s now a big shot in Iraq. Mebbe, we shouldn’t have been so hasty...

Well, the UN sent us to Korea; ditto, Vietnam - on our own nickel - at that! Few people realize that we didn’t go of our own volition but as participant in a UN ‘Police Action’ per Korea – and as an unfortunately shortsighted galumpin’ signatory to the SEATO document.

You know that I am responding indirectly. My responses are addressed toward the malcontent countries (and its citizens) of the world.

Jasd, the definition of a "terrorist" nowerdays is so loosely applied, yet the basic original idea behind terrorism is that it "is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion". AKA... using fear to coerce people to comply. Does that sound familiar?

Secondly, you are talking about people as disposable containers that either hinder or advance a state. Who are you talking about when you say Korea, Vietnam, USA... These are imaginary constructs, borders of which are many times are drawn along rivers and shorelines.

That's why the "figting terror" rhetoric is repulsive to me, because in fact it spreads terror. Terrorism is perhaps causes less then .0001 % of deaths in the world. What ends up happening... by means of the media and govenmental reports and "alerts".... terrorism looks like the cause of all "evil".

I think that Americans need to really get out and travel a bit. Then they'll see that people around the world are not as different, and are driven by the same motives and forces. Some Muslims screaming "Death to Israel" today, is not any different from some Louisiana residents screamed "death to niggers" 50 years ago. And all of that was resolved eventually with no need for a war, or military intervention.

What we have today, is America (and much of the world perhaps) getting a Televised worldview... that looks like this:



And producers will not portray these extremists as a rogue KKK type of organization, but they put a face of entire religion on it.... and do it for political reasons.

Fear will only breed fear, and hate likewise will breed hate. Once upon a time US was above these tactics... now it's just a fairy tale of the past.

What's ironic, is these tactics fuel the rogue "jihadists" propaganda. If your house gets blown up by US soldiers... would you just sit and thank them for liberating you? I can guarantee you, that if you were in these people's shoes you will be the first one in line screaming with these radicals.

Radical "Islam" of today is a reactionary movement, just like Black panthers was a reactionary movement.

But, today we label the causes of such hatred as "what's good for them", and don't even try to understand these people. Our understanding comes from shredded video footage that only portrays "We hate America", and leaves out "here's why we hate America".

But the reality is, if we were to trade places... I suspect that the radical Christianity would be abound likewise.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I guess I don't know because I don't think like that. My heroes are people like Corrie ten Boom and John Wiedner, the Underground Railroad, etc. People who risk their lives to help others they don't even know. Also, people like Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul - I don't agree with them on everything, but they are not afraid to stand up for what they believe to be right, whether it's popular or not. John McCain used to be like that.

It was my understanding that we basically forced the Saudis to agree to conduct all their oil business in dollars, and they can hardly wait for the dollar to die so they can start using euros.

I'm not sure that that's right, but I'm probably wrong. I say that because I remember many years ago when I was going to school (High School). I had this teacher that told us that when ever traveling overseas we should exchange our money here in the US to whatever country we plan on visiting. And when coming back, to exchange our money back to US currency, in whatever country we are in. I remember him saying that as the years go by that our money will start losing its value slowly but surely, because we love to spent our money everywhere. And he said also because other countries prefer our money over there's. I never believed him, but as I reflect back it seems that he was pretty much on.

pk

>>...the definition of a "terrorist" nowerdays is so loosely applied,<<

Not by me :-o

>>...yet the basic original idea behind terrorism is that it "is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion". AKA... using fear to coerce people to comply. Does that sound familiar?<<

Exactly. Roman decimations and Soviet Gulags, amongst other examples.

>>Secondly, you are talking about people as disposable containers that either hinder or advance a state.<<

In America, the State is supposed to be its citizens. Who else is the State to advance? That said, I take your point and presently see my State becoming an assortment of consortiums, conglomerates, etc. Frankly, I don’t like it – but see it as being prophesied in the Book of Daniel. I am not one to make a liar of Gd.

>>Who are you talking about when you say Korea, Vietnam, USA... These are imaginary constructs, borders of which are many times are drawn along rivers and shorelines.<<

Imaginary? Hardly. Korea and Vietnam displayed a capacity to shoot back. Imaginary constructs do not shoot back. The USA is Gd-blessed – however constructed

>>That's why the "figting terror" rhetoric is repulsive to me, because in fact it spreads terror.<<

So, when we engage radical fighting Islamists – we should invent new terminology? I’m one of those who take Jesus Christ at His word when He advises the purchase of swords/guns. I don’t subscribe to ‘doctrinal’ interpretations that He was simply wrong. Jesus Christ adjured us – not for nothing.

Breed hatred and hatred will find a target, it will find the means, and it will manifest or otherwise implement that hatred.

Sounds like Wahhabist Jihadism, tah me. ...spreading, all by itself. Now, my reaction to that, as it should be, is “spreading ‘terror’ “ – like, oh, pigs defile them? well, how about that!?

Like it or not, we are about to witness the most horrific aspects of the Clash of Civilizations – and it didn’t start with our nuking Mecca...

What’s that!?

>>Terrorism is perhaps causes less then .0001 % of deaths in the world. What ends up happening... <<

I really don’t care what percentages we talk about today. I can easily envision a coupla two-three radioactive devices set off in our major cities. Who’s gonna be talking about relative percentages at that point?

>>...by means of the media and govenmental reports and "alerts".... <<

What kind of alert preceded the USS Cole? before Twin Towers? Pentagon? ...Defcon pink? I missed that :-o

>>...terrorism looks like the cause of all "evil".<<

Much of it, at least. I don’t appreciate those who’ve exported terrorism as – witness the loss of our freedoms and the construction of concentration camps for American citizens.

Given these losses and what portends – how can one excuse the acts of International terrorism?

>>I think that Americans need to really get out and travel a bit.<<

Americans, in times past traveled very little, yet they bequeathed to us the greatest known civilization that ever graced this earth.

People generally make that statement when wishing to condescend. Would I have seen a better side of Mallik should I have more often visited Canada?

>>Then they'll see that people around the world are not as different, and are driven by the same motives and forces. Some Muslims screaming "Death to Israel" today, is not any different from some Louisiana residents screamed "death to niggers"50 years ago.<<

I think you digress. The difference is that one would be pretty well assured that the wingnut in Louisiana didn’t drive a truckload of explosives into the local shopping mall – he simply screamed and make a fool of himself.

>>And all of that was resolved eventually with no need for a war, or military intervention.<<

So, you’re equating ‘honky’ wingnuts with Wahhabi Jihadists?

>>What we have today, is America (and much of the world perhaps) getting a Televised worldview... that looks like this:<<

Sorry, I’m on dial-up.

>>Fear will only breed fear, and hate likewise will breed hate. Once upon a time US was above these tactics... now it's just a fairy tale of the past.<<

You keep dwelling upon “fear” and “hate” re America. What happened to such as: love of country, honour, Gd, duty, etc – as determining factors re Americans?

>>What's ironic, is these tactics fuel the rogue "jihadists" propaganda.<<

I recall that the Jihadist did not require our reaction before, nor do they now, nor will they in the future. Hate is bred into them from childhood.

That said, there are exemplary Islamists; however, we speak of the militants.

>>If your house gets blown up by US soldiers... would you just sit and thank them for liberating you?<<

I tire of the attempts always to lay all things awry at the doorstep of America. You forget the 19th province where this current imbroglio began? That Afghanistan is an International Community exercise?

>>I can guarantee you, that if you were in these people's shoes you will be the first one in line screaming with these radicals.<<

Good grief, where was their fervor when Saddam ruled?

>>Radical "Islam" of today is a reactionary movement,<<

Breed hatred and hatred will find a target, it will find the means, and it will manifest or otherwise implement that hatred.

You forget the many Islamists believe that Jihad is a ‘spiritual struggle’ to subjugate or rule the entire world for Allah.

How is that reactionary?

>>...just like Black panthers was a reactionary movement.<<

Go figure. Bill Cosby became the highest paid entertainer at that time. Shortly, Michael Jordan would repeat in the world of sports. Opportunities abounded. Yet we had a group of malcontents who declined to work-up the effort to succeed otherwise.

>>But, today we label the causes of such hatred as "what's good for them", and don't even try to understand these people. Our understanding comes from shredded video footage that only portrays "We hate America", and leaves out "here's why we hate America".<<

For crying out loud, we gave them (oil producing Islam) oil and money – the entire infrastructure, education, banking, protection – the whole salami. When they wanted to nationalize (read steal) the sum and results of our investments – we acquiesced to their desires. We could have buried them.

They could now be one of the greatest civilizations on earth – rather than a repository of hate.

Their choice. Sad.

>>It was my understanding that we basically forced the Saudis to agree to conduct all their oil business in dollars,<<

Umm, carolaa, our banks (dratted banks) approached Libya and Nigeria with a scheme to raise the price of oil – if they would sell only in dollar$. The banks first went to Libya and Nigeria because they were the world’s standard for oil pricing as the oil they produced was so pure it required almost no refining.

With deals in hand from these two countries – the banks proceeded to other oil-producing nations with the same – “we’ll help raise oil prices if you sell only in dollar$.” Well, enter OPEC and the creation of petro dollar$.

That deal enabled us to print, circulate, and eventually – deliver inflationary dollar$ offshore and kept them there.

--according to Jonathan May

such as it is.

So, we discovered oil for them, we drilled for them, we built the infrastructure - and ended up having everything nationalized. Okay.

We made them rich. What's their problem?

>>...and they can hardly wait for the dollar to die so they can start using euros.<<

Umm, a note of glee, eh? Okay.

For crying out loud, we gave them (oil producing Islam) oil and money – the entire infrastructure, education, banking, protection – the whole salami. When they wanted to nationalize (read steal) the sum and results of our investments – we acquiesced to their desires. We could have buried them.


??????? Are you serious???? :). You can't be. USA is some odd 250 years old. The civilization as we know it began in Middle East. Are you saying that USA built middle east as we know it???? Banking is Babylonian invention. USA is merely a baby compared to a country like Iraq.
The only reason that it was possible for it to outgrow itself into an Empire, is the dollar hegemony that the rest of the world was happy to finance. There's no logical reason why labor of American farmer with same skills will be valued over labor of Chinese(Mexican,Russian and etc). But because it did, it allowed US to export the dollar and to import cheap labor in form of goods... thus letting the US to get rich, mainly due to this illusion of wealth.

Granted that USA gave many of the wonderful and great inventions, as well as people to the world.... but so did the Middle East. And to reduce the entire Middle East to a certain faith group... is what perhaps so insulting to these people in the first place.

>>??????? Are you serious???? :). You can't be. USA is some odd 250 years old. The civilization as we know it began in Middle East. Are you saying that USA built middle east as we know it????<<

I think the subject is still in view: to wit, the underlined and bolded in my above quote.

>>Banking is Babylonian invention.<<

You know, you are practically the only person I’ve met, read, or heard – who is aware of that fact.

>>USA is merely a baby compared to a country like Iraq.<<

That is what is so great about this country – what we’ve accomplished in that short time.

>>The only reason that it was possible for it to outgrow itself into an Empire, is the dollar hegemony that the rest of the world was happy to finance.<<

I think, that when we owned and controlled over 70% of global value – we were a hegemony. Today, we have bladder control problems. I fear what might happen when our money fails and the full faith and credit of the American people, as represented by the legal tender aspect of our money, is tested at the Hague. The combined

forces of the International Community may be at the disposal of the UN – at that time.

>>There's no logical reason why labor of American farmer with same skills will be valued over labor of Chinese(Mexican,Russian and etc).<<

Where would that determination be made?

>>But because it did, it allowed US to export the dollar and to import cheap labor in form of goods... thus letting the US to get rich, mainly due to this illusion of wealth.<<

How rich can a person get buying cheaply made Chinese goods – such as cotton shirts, sock, etc? For years, we bought the shoddiest of manufactured goods from China while we transferred our technology to them. Our machine shops. Entire airplane manufacturing plants. Intellectual properties. Patent rights. We even helped them redesign their space-launch vehicles. In return,

we opened our markets to them. Ipso... capital flight. A trillion dollar$ so far. Whilst they form alliances with nations who are overtly our enemies. ETC.

You’re right about “illusion”.

>>And to reduce the entire Middle East to a certain faith group... is what perhaps so insulting to these people in the first place.<<

But it’s factual. Have you not seen the killings of those converting from Islam? The MidEast is ONE 'exclusionary' “faith group”.

Not so fast. My larger family contains – Muslims.