A topic of footwashing and communion was started and then deleted. I had responded but when I clicked submit it would not accept it. I hate to see my good work go to waste ... so here is my response ...

This is a good topic of discussion Pam. Thanks for bringing it up.

I think your observation is correct. I would dare to say that most do not like the ordinances and will avoid them if they can.

Why? I suppose it is an out-dated ritual. One that most feel uncomfortable with. In the NT time ... they were used to having people touch their feet. In our society ... we are not and it is not a particular blessing when it is done.

I've strived to find a way that this could be more culturally accepted. I think the idea of it is good. But how to make it more accepted .... I am not sure. I don't fully understand why I am so uneasy with it.

I guess that if we just tossed the formal communion setting at church and ONLY did it during a fancy or even a simple more cozy meal setting ... that would be okay with me. The foot washing? I am just not sure how to make it more meaningful.
But, again I would focus on the setting. Either take the time to do it right or don't do it at all. I just feel the rushed setting at church does not cut it. Like you say .... it is the cattle rush.

I guess now that I am thinking of it .... if you had an entire Friday night service dedicated around the footwashing and had it so that you REALLY got to know the person you were serving. It should be a small group kinda thing. Sharing and testimonies could happen. I could find all kinds of good interaction activities. But to do it as we do it now is just going to cement resentment of the whole experience for an entire generation.

I've mentioned before that I would like to see preparation for the footwashing. I would like to see you either assigned a partner or have you ask and sign up with a partner a few weeks ahead of time.

Also ... I feel we do it too often. This makes people lose the importance and significance of the ordinance.

Well ... you have hit a big topic but I had better let other share their two cents worth.

Here was my original post:

I was going to have this put in the *Things we don't talk about* forum, but it can go here just as well.

Why do churches always seem more than half empty on the Sabbaths when there is Communion (if it is announced the week or two beforehand)?

I have to admit I have not been to a Communion Sabbath since I was baptized - not usually because I didn't want to, but because of other reasons keeping me from attending that particular church.

But, OTOH, I don't like Communion Sabbaths. The church I was attending had all the people move up to the front by the table and take the wine and bread from the Elders. That seemed like a cattle rush to me. Very disorderly and irreverent. Other places where the deacons passed out the bread and wine seemed more orderly.

The foot washing is what I didn't like. I'll wash anyone's feet, but I don't like people touching mine. It's a quirk of mine.

Obviously other people don't like going to church on Communion Sabbaths. What are your reasons???

I invite you to come to our little church. Our attendance does NOT diminish during communion Sabbath.

I truly believe, that when we understand what the blood covenant means to us, we will look forward to every communion Sabbath.

Gerry

Guess that puts you and I in our place Pam.

Well you have to admit -- Church is usually a spectator sport. The one exception is Communion Sabbath.

AS for "Why we do it" -- now that is a good topic.

But -- that thing about "just so happened to miss everyone since baptism" but wasn't trying to stay away from it?? That is a new one on me.

in Christ,

Bob

It was not my intention to put anyone in "their place." If that's how it came out, my apologies. When two parties made a covenant in the OT, they cut the animal in two, (see Gen 15 for an example), meaning that one would rather be cut in two than break the covenant. And that is exactly what God is pledging in the blood covenant, it means that God would rather be cut in two than break His covenant promises to His people.

To be reminded of this fact during every communion service is a most precious thought to me.

Gerry

Imagine a George Bush showing up at your door tomorrow and saying that he would like to wash your car. That's the kind of experience it was for the disciples. Communion is far more than eating and drinking and washing feet... but it's a reminder, a symbol to remind us to remember the sacrifice, and that we aught to sacrifice for each other.

Unfortunately, I don't think that the communion is practiced in a correct way today... not from the ritualistic standpoint, but from the spiritual standpoint. From the top down, I think that we seek convenience above sacrifice, and we are far from church described in Acts, where access of the wealthy was voluntarily used to take care of the poor. There's much hoarding of wealth going on today needlessly.

When the true revival takes place, perhaps the churches will outgrow the Saturday social clubs these are today. Forgive my criticism, but I don't want to be lying to you or to myself.

fccool ... Do you feel that our churches are Saturday Social Clubs?

If so how. And if so ... what can be done to change them.

And if so ... what are you personally doing that is different?

And what are you doing to change this is your area.

And how would you suggest that the rest of us promote change?

Matthew, Mark, Luke and Paul do not mention the washing of feet as part of the communion service I think. John tells about the footwashing but not the communion service so there is no Biblical connection there at all. Am I correct? mel

Red, unfortunately... YES. I feel that Adventist churches in the US are very much comparable to a Saturday morning social club. By social club I mean a like of college fraternity where people pay their dues to make sure that they are "members" and belong to something, and God forbid if they are more than that. There is very little actual sacrifice involved. More effort is put into the "church choir" than to actually doing something meaningful that will inform and benefit the community. The church is not growing, and the young people are leaving in large numbers.

Frankly, instead of us sending missionaries outside of the US, I think we need missionaries coming here.


What can we do to change the social club mentality? You can't change people. Only people can let God change their minds. People are unwilling to change, because their don't see the need for change to begin with. Until we see the desperate need for change, nothing will happen. We'll still come in and sing the songs on Sabbath morning about how great God is... same song we've been signing for ages, yet when someone comes to our door with a real need we send them away afraid to be "abused".

What do I do to promote the change?

1) Don't wait for approval... it will never come. Adopt the Nike attitude of "Just do it". If you have an outreach idea, don't wait for the funds/church approval. Pray about it, and if you feel convicted enough, just do it, and God will supply the rest. Currently I'm in progress of producing a monthly DVD Journal with latest world news from Christian perspective, and some practical day to day things that people can take away from the Word of God, thus demonstrating what it means to follow Christ without use of the good old cliches such as the pulpit "prayer of salvation", which is nowhere found in the Bible.

2) Manage your time wisely. Avoid meaningless church activities that gobble up much of the time of resources that could be used more purposefully. For that reason, I am no longer take part in board meetings. Way too much time is spent discussing things of little eternal importance IMO.

3) Same as #2 but with your money. Spend it on outreach activities rather than comfort. The best churches are not the ones which are best looking, or air conditioned.

4) Associate with like minded people in the church. Start a small group where you can fill that void for people who care, but would like to go beyond the social club church limits.

5) Know what you are talking about, and be prepared to give answer to anyone who questions you on the spot... not by means of a study guides, or "read this book".


6) Stop speaking relegionese, and THINK for crying out loud before we say things. Sometimes listening to some "super spiritual" people speaking makes me realize why some take Christians for simpleminded and naive loops. Here's an example of the "super spiritual" story, by a "super spiritual" member:

A guy at my workplace was hit by a forklift truck. It knocked him out. I immediately stopped and prayed for the guy on the spot at work, and after he got up and shook himself off he ended up with a couple of bruises instead of broken bones. Prayer does work!


Now, to any semi-reasonable and logical person this would be a silly story showing off the simplemindedness of what would appear to be the consensus of the congregation as they say AMEN.

I wanted to raise my hand and ask if he believed that because of that person's prayer God somehow altered the cause of already happened event so that the person was instantly healed? As though God is dependent on our wish for protection of other. Would the guy have broken bones if someone has not prayed for him???? This "super spirituality" can take insane proportions and in fact can be used by Satan to discredit the sound doctrine. I'm not saying that prayer does not work, but getting stuff we want from God is not a major purpose of the prayer.

Then there's a barrage of cliches that we just "know" are right, but we don't know how to explain these any other way. So we get the:

All you need to do to go to heaven is ask Jesus into your heart.

What does that mean to an unsaved person who is worldly minded and understands the idea from a worldly romanticism perspective????? We use these cliches and we think that we know what we are saying, but we don't. HEART=MIND in the Bible. So instead of saying:

"Listen, Christ lived and died to give us a chance to change our minds about certain things, about the way we live our lives"....

we over-romantize the idea with a bit of "super spiritual" spice

All you need to do to go to heaven is ask Jesus into your heart.

The above phrase means nothing in Biblical context, and it's absolutely foreign to the Bible. We don't see people in the Bible praying a "prayer of Salvation" and "asking Jesus into their hearts". Paul uses poetic language to speak to Ephesians when he used the "Christ may dwell in your heart through faith" . They knew exactly what he meant. We don't see the appeal to invite Jesus into their hearts at the day of Pentecost. We see people hearing the doctrine of the apostles, receiving it gladly and being baptized... and God added to their number DAILY.

People are longing for the things that make sense, they come to church and instead of solid doctrine they are fed watered down spiritual cliches. It's no wonder they walk away empty and without any meaning.