In these perilous times , God has an end -times message for you. Do you wanna learn the Seven Seals ?

No

Feel free to browse our website at www.DAVIDKORESH.NET

Mark, tell us who you are first..

AND QUIT spamming the shout box please.

Hello


My name is Mark Anthony and I work for 'the Return of Koresh ' administration with a few other believers. We believe that God is still speaking thru prophets in these end times and that he spoke thru David as well before the days of the 93' seige.

We believe that the writings of Victor Houteff and Ellen White are esentiall to understanding the theology that God still speaks to us thru prophets.

Please review our website and let us know what you think.


www,davidkoresh.net

Hi Mark

There was a child with your name that was at Mt Carmel, was that you?

Yes , thank-you for remembering.

also the correct address of our website is www.davidkoresh.net

Are you saying David will return ? or be resurrected?

Thanks

Did you lose some family members? AND thanks for answering that..

Mark, please contain this to one thread, ok? Thanks :)

Yes , both of my Parents died for the belif's in which they held. Shortly befor the seige , David was teaching us what God had told him. God revealed to david that he would be killed soon for his message and David told his students they might be killed as well.

We do believe that David gas been ressurected and now awaits in Heaven untill the Lord God sends him back a second time to fullfill Revelation chapter 10.

He will be a strong angel with a little book open in his hand.

peace

What have you been doing since then? Did the gov't take custody of you? Or did you live with friends or relatives?

Must have been tough to see your friends die..

Mark you are welcome here. BUT please do not spam members or have the same message on all of the forums.

This Administrator has no goal to spend his time removing duplicate posts, and get complaints from members over the PM's

Ok, Please??

Learn from David Koresh? No, thank you!

Gerry

Stan ,
I have lived with my Aunt and Uncle since I have been 7 years old and have been raised in the Seventh Day Adventist church . They have been strict sabbath keepers for all of my life.

I have studied the teachings of Ellen White and Victor Houteff and those of Lois Roden and now consider myself to be a Davidian Seventh Day Adventist.

We believe in Christ crucified twice , even as much as Moses struck the rock of Horeb twice, as taught by the Sheppard's Rod.

More information on David Koresh and the Branch Davidians can found at www.davidkoresh.net

What would be the purpose for Christ dying twice?

They must sin an extra amount to require a second death huh?

Does he raise from the dead twice also?

I suppose there could be a whole new Bible written to cover all this Extra Biblical happenings. Why would the Bible ignore such an important event as His second death and resurrection?

This is a Goog question. Let me share some literature with you to answer the question on this doctrine.

www.davidian.org/study31a.htm


This should answer how this doctrine actually originates in the New Testament.

Mark, kindly limit all your posts and discussions about David Koresh to this thread. Any of these links posted elsewhere will be deleted. Thanks.

I am not going to go to your website and try to wade through it all to find the answer. If you can't come here and have a conversation sharing your views ... then I am just not interested in communicating with you.

Just because you have started five or six threads with the same call for your web site and sent me duplicates to my private messages ... I am really not interested in checking out your site. A little to over the top pushy for me.

If you desire to come here and talk ... that is different. So far your spam approach has not worked well for me.

It sounds like it is saying that because Moses struck the 2nd rock, then Christ has to die a 2nd time. Is that accurate?

There are Davidians and there are Branch Davidian and then there are the people who followed Vernen Howell (David Koresh).

Which are these? Just the Davidians?

(BTW - where do they get their members? Are SDAs going over there?)

in Christ,

Bob

>>We believe in Christ crucified twice , even as much as Moses struck the rock of Horeb twice, as taught by the Sheppard's Rod.<<

Strange, where expository light manifests...

Though there is that in Biblical exposition to suggest that Jesus Christ would be 'struck' three times (once being at the cross with another event encompassing a 'two-time or twice' second striking) - according to the principle you've forwarded in the above. There is no indication that Jesus Christ Himself would be crucified twice. [/extemporaneously]

Indicators point to Jesus Christ being crucified the once as Gd intended by the demonstration of Moses first striking the Rock, which was Jesus Christ - with Gd intending that the second outpouring of water ('HS/Latter Rain'?) be manifested by the Spoken Word. We are apprised that

Moses, instead, struck the 'Rock' twice; thereby, suggesting that Jesus Christ must be yet struck again - or Gd's figuratively antitypical 'Rock' is made a lie.

The next 'striking' seems to point to Jesus Christ's Body being struck. That would be, figuratively speaking, His followers...

That, if proved exegetically sound, would require that the Fall Feasts speak to things hitherto unapprehended.


Rather than simply posting a link to a site - why don't you clip exerts and bring them here for discussion - if it is your desire to do so. Links are such

bothers to explore in depth...

As I understand only a small amount of David Koresh's teachings (his doctine that he was the sinful Messiah) I found no other reason to follow his teachings as the foundation was based on shifting sands.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24:5 KJV

I find Jesus' response to Peter appropriate, when Peter wished to subvert Jesus' plain teaching .

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." Matt 16:23 KJV
Regards!

The Branch Davidians made tapes and videos, right?

So, where is the evidence that these teachings came from David Koresh? Where is video or audio of David Koresh saying such things as:

-- He was the Messiah
-- He would be resurrected
-- Everyone needed to let him sleep with their wives
-- He would be the angel that gives John the little book
-- And other such things that are kinda hard to believe

These all seem like some outlandish claims. I don't see how people can believe such things without any evidence.

From what I understand, the Davidians saw David Koresh as a messiah, but not the Messiah.

Which means an anointed one. They also said Ellen White was a messiah, and the reformers, and other leaders, and the apostles, and the prophets, especially those who where assigned to deliver Israel, like Samson:

Judges 3:9 And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, [even] Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.

Judges 3:15 But when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised them up a deliverer, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab.

Judges 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

So to them, the great men of God, of the ages, where deliverers, or anointed ones, or messiahs. Naturally they saw David Koresh as a deliverer. Perhaps one which was seen in prophecy somewhere, in some verse that can have a duel application. God sometimes foretold the raising up of a deliverer, like Cyrus. Some might say the raising up of Ellen White was seen here:

Rev. 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again [ - Ellen White - ] before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

So if it worked for ancient Israel, why can't it work for us?

I'm not saying we should think like that, but I'm saying it's not that strange of a teaching. I think alot of these things have been blown way out of proportion. That's because people like strange and shocking stories. And people are in denial that our government is taking orders from the Vatican, so they would rather see the Massacre at Waco as a judgment from God, and assure themselves that they got what they deserved if they where such monsters. Instead of the Inquisition, we see Beowulf and Grendel. Not wicked Papists persecuting saints, but heroes vanquishing the trolls and dragons. That's what we'd rather see.

I honestly find the teachings of Branch Davidians or Shepherd's Rod, or New Theology, to be not very interesting. But I wouldn't want to falsely accuse them.

Do you guys get what I'm saying? I don't endorse their teachings, because frankly I don't even know what they teach, for the most part. I tried studying Shepherd's Rod, but it was too boring. I disagree with the constant reaching only to SDAs, and never the world.

And our president has no business telling us that's what will happen to us if join a cult. We are supposed to have a right to join a cult if that's what we want to do. And the government has no right to define what is or is not a cult. If they start doing that, you know they are under the control of the Vatican.

The same Constitution that protects our right to join a cult also protects our right to keep the Sabbath.

That's what makes us different than the Communists, the Muslims, and the Papists.

I seriously believe the Davidians where used as a warm-up exercise to prepare the US for a new Inquisition. Do you not believe there will be another Inquisition? In spite of how Great Controversy says there will be?

-- Jesus was crucified between 2 thieves.
-- The Apostles where compared to 2 other cults.
-- The Papacy burned witches, and real criminals, and true Christians together.
-- If you see the Papacy busting cults, and running the CIA, and managing our justice system for us, which does administer good justice, you can be sure she's warming up to start persecuting true Christians, together with the cults and real criminals. True Christians will be seen as traitors because they won't go along with her Sunday plan, and they won't stop saying the Papacy is the Antichrist.

I don't really know much about the beliefs you guys have, but I have seen the video and read all about what happened at Waco.

David Koresh was evil at its highest form.

He shows no characteristics of a Christlike person whatsoever.

Dear Mark i am sorry for you that you had such a tribulant life so far. I kind of know what it s like to experience suffering and losing the ones you love. But let me tell you something other people in here don t explicitly tell you. David Koresh misused the writings of Ellen White to brainwash people in order to gain power. Power in the form of sex, worship and the feeding of selfish pride by making himself more than anyone else. David Koresh is a satanic despot and you should get away from him and his teachings as the east is from the west. Extremism is never good and doctrines ain t worth it to mess up your whole life. Listen to your inner voice that distinguishes wrong from right. Deep in your heart you know that the Davidians don t make you happy. They will never make you happy. You don t even need the SDA church to become happy and walk with Christ. It is better to ask Jesus to help you and live by the most simple truths than being captured in a life of religious doctrines. Please leave the Davidian church and experience the freedom in Christ. I know it is hard for you to change your beliefs because you have been programmed by a cult, but please think about what i tell you.

In the reviews done regarding this break off group from the Branch Davidians -- I can not find much in the way of redeeming value in the gross errors into which they fled.

I remember a report where it was obeserved that both the Davidian denomination and the Branch Davidian congregations that he attended formerly - expelled him from their groups. (Credit where credit is due)

in Christ,

Bob

The unsavory nature of this guy's methods and practices seem to be glaringly obvious.

What I am trying to find out is the extent to which the denomination of Branch Davidians had other locations beyond Waco at the time.

in Christ,

Bob

THANK-YOU ALL FOR RESPONDING AND I RESPECT EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOUR VIEWS. IT'S SO HARD TO ANSWER EVERY LAST ONE OF YOUR QUESTIONS AS I HAVE BEEN AWAY FROM THE MESSAGE BOARD ALL NIGHT AND SO MANY OF YOU HAVE RESPONDED TO THE THREAD I STARTED.

ONE GUY ASKS "ARE WHERE ARE THE VIDEOS , OR THE PROOF OF STATEMENTS.

PLEASE READ OUR MESSAGE BOARD COMPLETELY. THERE ARE TONS OF LINKS TO DAVID KORESH INFORMATION AS WELL AS PERSONAL TEACHINGS AND VIDEOS AND TAPES. SEARCH FOR THEM.

YOU WILL ALSO FIND LINKS TO THE MT. CARMEL HOME SITE AS WELL WHICH HAS NEW POSTINGS EVERYDAY AS WELL.

AFTER A COMPLETE EXAMINATION OF OUR MESSAGE BOARD AND WEBSITE AND AFTER YOU WATCH ALL THE VIDEOS ON OUR MESSAGE BOARD AND EXPLORE ALL THE LINKS , I AM POSITIVE THAT ALL YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED.

Mark let me ask you a simple question, is Jesus the most high authority in your life? If yes, don t you remember the words of our members? "by their fruits you shall know them". What are the fruits of David Koresh? sexual abuse, unscriptural teachings, murder, violence and destruction. These are devil fruits. No matter how much info and theories you have got about David Koresh we can all assume according to Jesus that Koresh was a satanist!

members = master

Since you ask , we are Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist.

On our website , you will find links to a couple more BDSDA websites in our organization.

Mark, we have a policy here that people are not to come here recruiting for their cause.

If I see anything more along this line, I will ban you.

If you would like to remain here but participate in discussions WITHOUT lifting up David Koresh, you are most welcome to do so.

I don't want to discuss this any further. I hope that you will respect us on this.

Thank you Gail. We don't need recruiters here. But I wish he would come and have a conversation with us instead of just advertising his web site. But then, perhaps he just doesn't know enough about his "religion" to converse.

I too appreciate Gail's post.

If Mark wants to raise a specific part of his beliefs and ask for others' opinion and input, there could be
some benefit for everyone.

Supposedly David Koresh slept with a 70 year old woman and a 11 year old girl, and all the girls at the place, and everyone's wife. What a fiend.

1. But David Koresh was a work-a-holic. He was giving Bible studies, sermons, seminars, daily. He managed the construction business and gun trading business. He was talking to people, making connections, delegating authority. He was constantly busy.

Most work-a-holics and very busy and driven people, will tell you they have a diminished sex drive, not a drive to have lots and lots of sex. Where there's alot of work in a marriage, there's a danger that they are not intimate enough and will drift apart, sometimes, unless it's mutual.

So, most likely David Koresh only had sex with his own wife, and probably not often enough.

So that's another thing that doesn't add up.

2. There's also no video or audio evidence that David Koresh taught that everyone needed to let him sleep with their wives.

3. Also where is the DNA evidence that shows there where a bunch of kids sired by David Koresh.

They just wanted to make the Davidians look like an abomination. It's propaganda. Like the propaganda used against the Jews in Nazi Germany, and against the Waldenses.

Watch this video: Waco: The Big Lie



4 and 1/2 minutes in, you see an interview where David Koresh, himself, answers the allegation to the sex charges. It looks like he's telling the truth.

Look at Tony Alamo. For decades they have been trying to accuse him of polygamy and statutory rape and tax evasion and all kinds of other things. They don't have any evidence. They can't get a conviction. Nothing at all. Yet they still keep pushing their claims and allegations. Now they say he's into kiddie porn. It's pathetic. All lies.

They are doing that because Tony Alamo won't stop teaching the Papacy is the Antichrist. It is a character assassination conspiracy to ruin the preacher's credibility.



Notice the character assassination in the bottom left box:

I can't believe how much confidence people put in these conflicting stories. This report is not factual.



Wrong. Koresh's leadership began when he was chosen by the former leader.



This makes it look like they where having a shoot-out to see who would be the next leader. LOL.

That's not honest journalism.

Roden was angry because his mom, the former leader, chose Koresh instead of him. Roden invited them to his ranch and opened fire on David and friends.

When someone is shooting at you, the only thing you can do to defend yourself and keep them from killing you, is return fire. If you're unarmed and some lunatic starts shooting at you, you're dead. "...he beareth not the sword in vain", (Romans 13:4).

This is the wild-west we're talking about. There are lots of stories where wicked men have broken into some farm home and murdered and raped everyone there and stole all their money and goods. That kind of thing only happens to people who are foolish and presumptuous enough to live in the country, in the great plains, without guns.

This is where I grew up. Everybody we knew had several guns in their collection. My step-dad had a .38 special. We shot it at targets and caught some game. He taught me very seriously: "Always treat a gun like it's loaded." When I was 13, my other step-dad let me and my brother take the shot-gun out to get some quail. I knew the gun was not loaded, so I was about to click it at my brother's head to scare him, but I didn't because of that rule his dad taught me. Turns out when my brother had the gun he loaded it and I didn't know. The next time I clicked, target practicing on a sunflower, it blew the flower to oblivion.

If my step-dad hadn't of taught me gun safety, my brother would be dead, and I would be in a mental hospital to this day.

And they criticize the Davidians for teaching their children gun safety!!!!

Jesus told His disciples to buy swords. It they would have had guns at that time, He would have told them to buy guns, for self defense. To make sure they wouldn't be taken and killed before their time. They had a ministry to fulfill before they would be ready for martyrdom.



No one mentioned that they had a gun dealing business, that was perfectly legitimate? It was just money. Like how Paul was a tent-maker, and continued his occupation to support his ministry. The Davidians had other businesses as well. I suspect they had Jesuit spies among them persuading them into the gun business, so they would have guns out there so the ATF would have an excuse to come out and start shooting at them.

They where no different than any of the other gun dealers in Texas who where never raided. Except they gave Bible studies and taught that the Papacy was the Antichrist.

Everyone that teaches the Papacy is Antichrist is getting labeled as a cult. Because the zealous Papists have control over our media now. And over alot of things. Look at the ridiculous charges brought against Tony Alamo, Jack Chick, and the late Alberto Rivera. And the media hypes this stuff up.

The Jesuits can assign their students do this work for extra-credit. All they have to do is make lots of accusations and bear false witness. If they go to court and the charges are dropped, the ministry is still discredited and demonized.

And pretty soon, the rumors get out of hand. The false charges build up. More and more false charges. The people wonder why there are so many charges. He's like a drug dealer that the FBI can't pin anything on. So they are suspicious. By this time everyone thinks it's a cult.

Of course, usually they give in by this time. Tony Alamo hasn't, though. And check out all the bogus charges. Now they say he was a child porn king-pin. That's ridiculous. But he got arrested because of all the charges. Yet not a shred of evidence!

But his guys become more loyal, because they know it's the Papacy.

Jack Chick is too big. They can only slander him, but they can't send the FBI after him. And Rivera is dead. He swore an oath to the Jesuit order that if he ever defected, his brethren should kill him. And they did, in 1993.

The Jesuits have been playing these games for a long time. They are pretty good at it. That's how they destroy protestantism and how they have brought all these churches into the ecumenical movement. Those who wouldn't just take the benefits. I mean Ahab offered to buy the field first. You know what I mean?

That's how it goes with every organization that still teaches the Papacy is the Antichrist.

Except SDA, cause they are too big.

But eventually, they will figure out something. Sunday Law, I guess.

But I know Chick and Alamo, and whoever else, won't join SDA, because they think SDA has been overtaken by the Jesuits, and that's why SDA doesn't get any trouble. Plus the fact that the SDA church stands with the Papacy, accusing David Koresh and Tony Alamo, and the whoever else the media say is a cult, based on false allegations. That makes us look real bad.

Of course some cults are really cults.



They didn't have nearly that much ammunition. They where just gun dealers. They where not planning for a war or a raid.

They didn't have any grenades and not a single sub-machine gun. All their guns where perfectly legal and legitimate, and tax paid. They had lawyers in their congregation.

Shameless lies.

Exo. 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to [do] evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest [judgment]:

Do you think it's OK for you to raise a false report now? Or go in with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness? Or follow a multitude to do evil? Or speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment?

I testify against you this day, in the most loving way I know, if you repeat the lies against the Davidians, you do all these things.

And if you lie about people that burned to death and have to spend their lives in prison, for doing Bible studies? That's a pretty unloving thing, if you ask me. And it makes our church look very bad.

Mark,

While most of us love to converse with each other and with new people, we absolutely HATE wading thru long posts.

Since you have recieved a slight cold shoulder from everyone, let me do something a bit different....Let's talk from YOUR sources why the need for 2 crucifixitions...'k? And let's have a bit of converstation regarding those theological sources...

Now, you posted a link regarding Moses and his hitting the rock twice...I will copy a paragraph-
SIGNIFICANCE OF ROCK BEING SMITTEN ONCE IN HOREB WAS DESTROYED

"Here Moses sinned. He became wearied with the continual murmurings of the people against him, and at the commandment of the Lord took the rod, and, instead of speaking to the rock, as God commanded him, he smote it with the rod twice {which meant that Christ was to be smitten twice}, after saying, 'Must we {Moses and Aaron} fetch you water out of the rock.' He here spoke unadvisedly with his lips. He did not say, God will now show you another evidence of His power, and bring you water out of this rock. He did not ascribe the power and glory to God for causing water to again flow from the flinty rock, and therefore did not magnify Him before the people."--4 Spiritual Gifts, pg. 39:1 (bold emphasis, braces added).

"By this rash act {smiting the rock twice}, Moses took away the force of the lesson that God purposed to teach. The rock {of Horeb}, being a symbol of Christ, had been once smitten {to give water--Ex. 17:6}, as Christ was to be once offered {Heb. 9:28--crucified--to give the water of everlasting life--John 4:14}. The second time, it was needful only to speak to the rock {Num. 20:8}, as we have only to ask for blessings in the name of Jesus. By the second smiting of the rock, the significance of this beautiful figure of Christ was destroyed {showing that Christ was to be crucified twice}."--Patriarchs and Prophets, pg. 418:1 (bold emphasis, braces added).

When Moses first smote the "rock of Horeb" only one time to give life-saving water to Israel, it was to teach them the "lesson" that Christ, the "spiritual Rock" (1 Cor. 10:4), was to be smitten "once" (literally crucified) to give them the life-saving waters of "everlasting life" (John 4:14). By this forceful "lesson" they were to understand that "our Saviour was not to be sacrificed a second time" (PP411). But when Moses smote the rock again, not only "once," but twice, the "beautiful figure of Christ" was changed and its "significance...destroyed" (PP418). By "this rash act," another forceful "lesson" was taught, which clearly indicated that Christ was to be crucified twice! He was first to be crucified by typical Judah; and then again in the latter days He is to be crucified by antitypical Judah. But who are they? To learn the answer to that question, we must understand more about typical Judah in the days of jesus.

Isn't this [that part which is underlined] just wrong reasoning? If the first striking of the rock symbolized the crucifiction of Christ, why would the mistake of a man, an angry man, FORCE God into crucifying Christ twice?

Good luck Neil. But I supect you will just be referred to a web site.

Redwood, you sound like you have had some dealings with these people....

Nevertheless, the mike is available to Mark to share what he sees...I would hope that since he uses EGWhite to sustanciate his views that he would also understand that truth has nothing to fear...

Lest we stray too far from the point of actual history.

Vernon Howell (aka David Koresh) left the compound and took some followers with him. George Roden was left at the site - and apparently in charge.

David returns years or months later (you tell me) with 7 heavily armed followers -

Shooting breaks out -- (say anyone you wish started it for the sake of discussion).

In the end David is again leading the group and Roden is shot in the chest and the hand.

As much as this may be perfectly reasonable to one of the members of that "group" -- it is not Christian behavior of any kind that I am aware of and quoting the role of the STATE in controlling crime in Rom 13 is not helping to make your case about the violence they were engaged in as all of them were in fact committing crime at that point.

I know of no SDAs, nor NT authors that would condone such a thing! How is it that you would have any interest at all in trying to view this as a "good thing"?? Where is the incentive??

in Christ,

Bob

I was not aware that the Adventist church gave it's name out for use by other denominations.

That is a new one on me.

in Christ,

Bob