Proposition 8 (California) - unOFFICIAL ADVENTIST FORUM

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#191071 - 10/06/08 06:22 AM Re: Proposition 8 (California) [Re: Redwood]
ichabod Registered: 07/14/04 Posts: 2992	Redwood, nobody's saying that every sin should be made illegal. That has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. There are two quite different issues that are relevant here. 1) There's a difference between "making a sin illegal," and specifically legalizing it. Lying, in most cases, is not illegal. But that doesn't mean we should hand out a "license to lie." 2) Some lying is illegal--fraud, for example-- not because society deems it 'immoral,' but because it is damaging to the fabric of society. There are lots of morally neutral things--playing loud music at night, for example--which may nonetheless be outlawed. Since it's not a constitutional issue, like the free exercise of religion, it's quite possible to say that because gay marriage damages a society, it should be outlawed, without regard to whether it's moral or not. And yes, there is a real danger to freedom of religion if gay marriage is legalized. Just ask the Canadian printer who was fined for printing a Bible text. Hate speech laws will be increasingly used to silence dissent against a whole range of issues. Hate crime legislation in general is dangerous, because the state moves from regulating what person does, to what a person thinks. That's tyranny.
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#191076 - 10/06/08 06:44 AM Re: Proposition 8 (California) [Re: ichabod]
CoAspen Registered: 07/01/02 Posts: 1394 Loc: Colorado	Quote: Hate crime legislation in general is dangerous, because the state moves from regulating what person does, to what a person thinks. That's tyranny. What do you think would be a better alternative? _________________________ ...seeing is believing, no, believing is seeing!
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#191077 - 10/06/08 06:48 AM Re: Proposition 8 (California) [Re: CoAspen]
Redwood Swiss n Swedish American Registered: 12/09/06 Posts: 9100 Loc: A citizen of Heaven	Originally Posted By: CoAspen Quote: Hate crime legislation in general is dangerous, because the state moves from regulating what person does, to what a person thinks. That's tyranny. What do you think would be a better alternative? We could make ALL crimes Hate Crimes. _________________________ Another one of Woodies Goodies Love WON Another. Redwood the tree
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#191163 - 10/06/08 08:29 PM Re: Proposition 8 (California) [Re: Liz]
Jeannieb43 Princess of Pasadena Registered: 12/29/01 Posts: 2591 Loc: California	Originally Posted By: Liz Having said that, I think that the Church should make a stand in their own doctrines or beliefs but should stay completely out of politics. I think that they can get into some murky waters if they start telling their people on how to vote. My sentiments exactly. The church is definitely treading some murky waters when it begins advocating for -- or against -- propositions on the political ballots. Let the preachers preach generic admonitions in their parish pulpits, but never get into the political arena. That could open up floodgates of reproof - from both public and private entities. _________________________ Jeannie ...Change is inevitable; growth is optional....
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#191224 - 10/07/08 03:18 AM Re: Proposition 8 (California) [Re: Jeannieb43]
Shane Administrator of Foro Adventista Registered: 02/02/02 Posts: 17020 Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas	I don't think those "Adventist" sites are officially sponsored by the church. _________________________ I reserve the humble right to be wrong. Link > Shane's Page - update in progress
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#191302 - 10/07/08 01:09 PM Re: Proposition 8 (California) [Re: Shane]
Redwood Swiss n Swedish American Registered: 12/09/06 Posts: 9100 Loc: A citizen of Heaven	Originally Posted By: Shane I don't think those "Adventist" sites are officially sponsored by the church. Yes. But did you see the 'official' endorsements? Against: Quote: Mitchell Tyner Retired Associate General Counsel & Associate Director of Public Affairs and Religious Liberty, General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists Terrence Finney Retired Superior Court Judge, State of California Lawrence T. Geraty President Emeritus, La Sierra University Tim Mitchell Senior Pastor, Pacific Union College Church Chris Blake Associate Professor of English and Communication, Union College Deborah Silva Professor of Speech Communication, Walla Walla University Fritz Guy Research Professor of Theology, La Sierra University Alger Keough Executive Pastor, Azure Hills Seventh-day Adventist Church, Grand Terrace, CA Gary Chartier Associate Professor of Law and Business Ethics, La Sierra University Delwyn Finch Pastor of Web Ministries, Forest Lake Seventh-day Adventist Church, Apopka, FL David Larson Professor of Religion, Loma Linda University Jeff Gang Pastor, Crosswalk Seventh-day Adventist Church, Redlands, CA Charles Scriven President, Kettering College of Medical Arts Maury Jackson Associate Pastor, Lancaster (CA) Seventh-day Adventist Church Aubyn Fulton Professor of Psychology, Pacific Union College Michael McMillan Pastor, Victoria Seventh-day Adventist Church, San Bernardino, CA Sam Leonor Chaplain, La Sierra University Milbert Mariano Chair of Visual Arts Dept., Pacific Union College Richard Lee Associate Pastor, San Diego Korean Seventh-day Adventist Church David Oceguera Pastor, Brawley & El Centro (CA) Seventh-day Adventist Church John R. Jones Associate Professor of New Testament and World Religions, La Sierra University Steve Leddy Lead Pastor, 24-Seven Ministry Center, Seattle, WA Harvey Elder Professor of Medicine, Loma Linda University Lourdes Morales-Gudmundsson Chair of World Languages Dept., La Sierra University James Walters Professor of Religion, Loma Linda University School of Religion Ron Jolliffe College Place, WA AND : For: Quote: Doug Batchelor President, Amazing Facts Ministries Stephen Bohr Speaker / Director, Secrets Unsealed & Pastor, Fresno Central SDA Church Shawn Boonstra Speaker / Director, It Is Written Ron Clouzet, M.Div., D.Min. Secretary of the SDA church's North American Division (NAD) Ministerial Association, Director of NAD Evangelism Institute (NADEI) and professor of Christian Ministry and Pastoral Theology at Andrews University Herbert E. Douglass, Th.D. Theologian & Best selling Adventist author Jim Gilley President, 3ABN John Lomacang Pastor, Thompsonville, IL SDA Church Neil Nedley, M.D. President, Weimar Institute & International best selling author Jerry N. Page President, Central California Conference Association of the Seventh-day Adventists Jean Ross Pastor, Granite Bay SDA Church Harold White Pastor, Sacramento Central SDA Church Steve Wohlberg Speaker / Director, White Horse Media I think just by examining the people who are endorsing each cause ... I can clearly decide where I stand. _________________________ Another one of Woodies Goodies Love WON Another. Redwood the tree
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#191382 - 10/07/08 11:24 PM Re: Proposition 8 (California) [Re: Redwood]
Jeannieb43 Princess of Pasadena Registered: 12/29/01 Posts: 2591 Loc: California	I would have signed a petition AGAINST Prop. 8 (legislation to require "marriage" to be only between one man and one woman), for the simple reason that I believe we as a church should not legislate such things--at all! For the church to take a public stand supporting a political move to hurt the gay population is, IMHO, Anti-Christian and wrong! If Prop. 8 passes, many of our own members will ab initio, become criminals. This does not mean I'm homosexual, or anything else. It means I believe we (and the civil law) need to treat all men and women equally. I'm ashamed of my church for publishing an article supporting Prop. 8 in the Pacific Union Recorder. Our church should take no stand on this issue, because of its sensitive nature. It should be between the worshiper and God. Period. _________________________ Jeannie ...Change is inevitable; growth is optional....
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#191391 - 10/08/08 12:49 AM Re: Proposition 8 (California) [Re: CoAspen]
ichabod Registered: 07/14/04 Posts: 2992	Quote: What do you think would be a better alternative? Any rational reading of the Constitution would make all "hate crime" legislation unconstitutional. Most "hate crimes" are already crimes. For the rest, it's either penalizing speech or beliefs. That's totalitarian.
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#191393 - 10/08/08 01:03 AM Re: Proposition 8 (California) [Re: ichabod]
Redwood Swiss n Swedish American Registered: 12/09/06 Posts: 9100 Loc: A citizen of Heaven	Just wanted to say thanks to the two above posts from Jeannie and ichabod. I appreciate and agree with you both. Well said folks. _________________________ Another one of Woodies Goodies Love WON Another. Redwood the tree
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#191396 - 10/08/08 01:18 AM Re: Proposition 8 (California) [Re: Jeannieb43]
carolaa Registered: 03/22/05 Posts: 1681 Loc: Texas	Originally Posted By: Jeannieb43 I'm ashamed of my church for publishing an article supporting Prop. 8 in the Pacific Union Recorder. Our church should take no stand on this issue, because of its sensitive nature. It should be between the worshiper and God. Period. I think you're right. If they published one view, then they should also present the other view - particularly since there are many SDAs on both sides of the issue. Present both sides fairly and let people make up their own minds. Otherwise, it is propaganda, as I have stated in other threads, and not a "news" magazine.
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