What does this subject have to do with "What Seventh-day Adventists Believe"? I see no "Bible" quotes....

You intellectual types are going to reason yourself right out of heaven.... (Yeah, here I go again) Continue...

'Bible and Theology' is a separate forum, and Bible verses would be more essential to a discussion there. Of course they're welcome and valuable here, but as I understand it we're not limited to using them only. Creationism is clearly something that Seventh-day Adventists believe, so I believe it's on-topic for this forum.

You anti-intellectual types are going to fear yourselves out of the enjoyment of trying to understand the world around you and God's Word better.

Gregory,

I would encourage you to post your views regarding the creation/evolution controversy. I would also encourage you to post creation books for balance here.

Robert,

Intellectual question...honestly. There is not a person here who is not hoping that God truely designed the world in one week. We just want some evidence of it, and not just the words from Moses. And you have to admit, if there are cultural issues in translating what moses saw, then it does create a real problem toward trusting the Bible. We want to trust, but we also want some corroberating evidence [not necessarily "proof"] that we can rely on.... You, OTOH, want us to accept the bible by faith without evidence in it's favor when there's overwhelming evidence against it. We have been taught that if we proceed without God's direction, we are acting on the belief of presumption. And none of us want to be presumptive.

Bravus, the book you recommend is pretty pro-evolution...from a man who is pretty much an athetist. Don't you have some recommendation that are more creationistic or at least by an individual who is a solid Christian?

I'll have a look. There are lots of creationist books, but they are usually very anti-evolution, and usually very scientifically dishonest. I recommended Dawkins as a very clear description from the other side of the fence, and because he directly addresses many of the strawman arguments about evolution that creationists raise.

I have to go pick up my wife right now, and I'd be in trouble if I don't go now, but I'll try to find a good discussion of evolution written by a Christian when I get home.

Robert:

Re: Bible verses.

I give people considerable freedom to post as they chouse to do so.

Neil:

This may say more about my knowledge, than the field. But, I am hard pressed to name a current (not old) Creationist book that deals with current issues in a scientificly respectable manner.

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You intellectual types are going to reason yourself right out of heaven....

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Amen

The law of the Lord is perfect... making wise the simple. ~ Psalms 19:7

Here are a couple of books that look really interesting. It was a kind of discouraging search trying to find a clear explanation of evolutionary theory from a Christian perspective - lots of invective, lots of really bad argumentation...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0521631440/102-2551343-0117728?v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...2551343-0117728

The title of this thread is 'the case for evolution', and I took Neil at his word when he stated that his intention was to consider that case in an honest and open-minded manner.

If you read carefully back through every post I've made in this thread, you'll discover that I have never at any stage stated my own position. That includes never at any stage rejecting a recent creationist perspective. What I'm attempting to do is sustain and fulfil Neil's intention for starting the thread - to actually consider the case for evolution honestly, and then reject it if the evidence points that way. (And even more than that, to get beyond simplistic dichotomies.)

I'm going to just ignore the anti-intellectual rantings from now on - and perhaps suggest to Gregory that they're off-topic in this thread - and continue discussing the issue with those who are willing to discuss it.

I will expand on my comment in regard to book that are scientificly accurate and present a Creationist view:

H. W. Clark was a SDA Creationist, scientist. He was probably the first published SDA author to move Creationist writings into the relm of science. [NOTE: George McCready Price was not a scientist.] For his time, Clark made a contibution that can not be underestimated. But, the issues and the science have moved far beyond where Clark was. Today, Clark is little more than a footnote in the history of Creationist thought. Yes, some of his major thesis remain embeded in the discussion. But, he is certainly not a major player in the discussion.

On Creationist theology: I am troubled, or at least not persuaded, by some of the recent books that attempt to discuss Creationism from a Biblical standpoint, rather than a scientific standpoint. I typically think that they go beyond what the Bible actually says. I will give a couple of examples:

a) One common claim is made in SDA circles that one can not be an evolutionist and believe in the Sabbath. I reject that claim. I have read works by Jewish authors who beleived in the Sabbath. I have knows SDA evolutionists who beleived in the Sabbath. While my example is of the Sabbath, I believe the same about other doctrines that it is claimed that one can not believe and be an evolutionist.

b) I reject some claims that creationists make as to what the Bible actually teaches. I totally reject the claim that the Bible teached an earth age of about 6,000 years. The reality is that I beleieve that the Bible allows far more freedom in this area than some claim.

There are probably some who wil read what I have just posted and draw conclusions that I am a liberal evolutionist. Actually, I am not. I am a creationist, and in many aspects, conservative.

But, right now, I am not aware of good books on creationism that are scientifically accurate. That may be my personal problem. They may be out there, and I am just not aware of them.

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. W. Clark was a SDA Creationist, scientist. He was probably the first published SDA author to move Creationist writings into the relm of science. [NOTE: George McCready Price was not a scientist.] For his time, Clark made a contibution that can not be underestimated. But, the issues and the science have moved far beyond where Clark was. Today, Clark is little more than a footnote in the history of Creationist thought. Yes, some of his major thesis remain embeded in the discussion. But, he is certainly not a major player in the discussion.

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I had the pleasure of being taught by Harold W. Clark and his son. He told me that during his time [1930-40s] in SDA circles, you could get disfellowshipped for believing in an ice age. He stated to my class, that there was over- whelming evidence for it.Try as he might, it was impossible to get around that there was NOT an ice age. He stumbled upon the idea that the Ice Age occurred during the flood, provided you believe that the flood occurred within the temporate zones of the earth. To Noah, it was a flood that covered the earth, albiet it was not only liquid, but solid ice/snow. This incidence told me that there was somethings in the bible that, from the author point of view was true, but it was NOT the universal view, ie the earth totally covered with liquid water as opposed to solid water, aka snow/ice. Now, it is generally accepted that the flood occured during the ice age within adventist circles.

Telling us what happened may not be scientific, but if a person is truthful, supporting outside evidence can be found to support one's claim.

"the Ice Age"

many long-age viewpoints hold that there have been many ice-ages

Science is certainly a process where-by each generation checks, rechecks, and improves the models of its predecessors.

/Bevin