SSL#10--The Heart of the Cross - Texts and Commentary

Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.
And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with
– even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.
Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message

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#28098 - 03/03/05 02:44 AM Re: SSL#10--The Heart of the Cross - Texts and Commentary [Re: sweettrini]
Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Hard as it is to understand, His righteousness was so perfect, so complete and satisfactory, that it was enough to cover the sins of the whole world. Oh yeah?? How? Why? "cover" ???
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#28099 - 03/03/05 02:49 AM Re: SSL#10--The Heart of the Cross - Texts and Commentary [Re: sweettrini]
Anonymous Unregistered	Quote: Put yourself in a situation in which you need to execute judgment. And though you want to be merciful, fairness and responsibility also demand justice. How does such a dilemma reflect the issue before God: how to be both merciful with fallen sinners and yet, at the same time, be just with them, as well? Oh yeah? Going to leave us hanging? Answer the question... Why? How?? I have questions for you. Are we just supposed to be informed of the debate over the cross and then have the debate thrown in our lap to figure out ourselves because the professional theologians haven't figured it out???
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#28100 - 03/03/05 03:42 AM Re: SSL#10--The Heart of the Cross - Texts and Commentary [Re: sweettrini]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	Quote: Quote: Here's the Bible's first clear explication of the crucial theme of the Cross: Because of the righteous, the wicked are spared. It was going to be the righteousness of another, of someone other than the "wicked" themselves, who would spare the wicked from the punishment that they deserved. For the sake of someone else, others are saved. I am having trouble connecting these 2 points.. JimBob, it makes more sense when we realize that among us human beings there are no righteous. We are all "the wicked" and it is Christ, the only righteous one, who spares us wicked the fate we deserve from the wages of sin. Then if we begin there, we can expand it to consider those who are clothed with Christ's righteousness and this world being spared for their sake, with the "wicked" (those outside Christ) benefitting from the blessing because of the presence of God's own in the world. Remember Luke 6:35 states He is kind to the unthankful AND to the evil. Does that help any? Nico _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#28101 - 03/03/05 03:44 AM Re: SSL#10--The Heart of the Cross - Texts and Commentary [Re: ]
Anonymous Unregistered	EDITED..because I was typing this up right when you (Nico) were posting..this is not a reply to yiou but input for the lesson to elaborate and widen the explication.. 23 ¶ Abraham came closer and asked, "Are you really going to sweep away the innocent with the guilty? 24 What if there are 50 innocent people in the city? Are you really going to sweep them away? Won’t you spare that place for the sake of the 50 innocent people who are in it? 25 It would be unthinkable for you to do such a thing, to treat the innocent and the guilty alike and to kill the innocent with the guilty. That would be unthinkable! Won’t the judge of the whole earth do what is fair?" 26 The LORD said, "If I find 50 innocent people inside the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake." 27 Abraham asked, "Consider now, if I may be so bold as to ask you, although I’m only dust and ashes, 28 what if there are 45 innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of 5 fewer people?" The LORD answered, "I will not destroy it if I find 45 there." 29 Abraham asked him again, "What if 40 are found there?" He answered, "For the sake of the 40 I will not do it." 30 "Please don’t be angry if I speak again," Abraham said. "What if 30 are found there?" He answered, "If I find 30 there, I will not do it." 31 "Look now, if I may be so bold as to ask you," Abraham said. "What if 20 are found there?" He answered, "I will not destroy it for the sake of the 20." 32 "Please don’t be angry if I speak only one more time," Abraham said. "What if 10 are found there?" He answered, "I will not destroy it for the sake of the 10." 33 When the LORD finished speaking to Abraham, he left. Abraham returned home.” Edited by JimBob7 (03/03/05 03:47 AM)
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#28102 - 03/03/05 03:45 AM Re: SSL#10--The Heart of the Cross - Texts and Commentary [Re: sweettrini]
ichabod Registered: 07/14/04 Posts: 2992	Look, I don't want to be insulting, but I read all the references you put up. Is this new to you? I hate to tell you, but there's nothing particularly new to me here. I've heard of all of this for years. Nor does any of it answer my question. Why don't you do some explication?
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#28103 - 03/03/05 03:46 AM Re: SSL#10--The Heart of the Cross - Texts and Commentary [Re: sweettrini]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	Quote: Here are some points... Did Jesus die to affect the Father's attitude toward us? Was the Father looking for some righteousness to reconcile his holy accounting department? This might help... was the cross for God or was it for humans and angels? The Scripture states that God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to Himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them. God saw He had a really bad rap in this world, undeservedly so, and it was causing people to reject Him who would have been His friends if they only knew Him. He didn't need His anger appeased in the sense little human beings do when we get all up in a dander over stuff (self included!). He was IN Christ showing the world what He, God, is really like, in the terms nearest and most comprehendable to us, as one of our own kind. _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#28104 - 03/03/05 03:52 AM Re: SSL#10--The Heart of the Cross - Texts and Commentary [Re: ]
Anonymous Unregistered	The info in the links is not new...I pasted for those who might be viewing the thread. Are you not aware of the flavors regarding the views on the atonement issue? In some of the links..John uses italics to bring out the nuances of what is involved in the heart of the gospel controversy.. It is related to paganism..and ultimately to idolatry..because it is associated with mischaracterising the character of God.
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#28105 - 03/03/05 03:54 AM Re: SSL#10--The Heart of the Cross - Texts and Commentary [Re: sweettrini]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	Quote: Quote: What implication is that? Because of the righteous, the wicked are spared... If you really think that puts the Father in a bad light then you must have problems with Jesus for this is the heart of His teaching and explanation as to why we are to love our enemies. He explicitly states, "that ye may be the sons and daughters of your Father in heaven, for He is kind to the unthankful and the evil, and makes the sun to shine and the rain to fall on the just AND the unjust..." Yes, because of the impartial righteousness of God (who is no respector of persons) the wicked are spared. Because of the presence of those clothed in Christ's righteousness, those who refuse His grace are spared as well, and owe every breath to the Righteous One in gratitude whether they recognize it or not. The GOOD NEWS is all about God's tender and loving regard for those who do not, did not, love Him back -- the wicked. It is the revelation of that love, brought home by His Holy Spirit, which alone has power to melt and transform the formerly hardened heart, to awaken the soul to awareness of its need and yearning for godliness, for connection with our Maker. Nothing else avails with such power as to tell of God's incredible love for the wicked, that He would give everything, pouring out His very blood in the Person of His Son, to reconcile them to Himself. Quote: Quote: No sinner is spared because he relies on Christ's righteousness..and nothing else. Really. Am I alone in thinking that's called, "the Gospel?" What else do we rely on? You're not alone, Ed. I share that thought. I have nothing else to rely on, certainly not anything in myself is going to save me. Edited by Nicodema (03/03/05 03:59 AM) _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#28106 - 03/03/05 03:55 AM Re: SSL#10--The Heart of the Cross - Texts and Commentary [Re: ]
Anonymous Unregistered	Nico, Yes...and maintain that theme in all facets of soteriology...read the sentences, conclusions and opinions of the authors or teachers to see if they are consistent with your theme. Look at words like cover the sins..for WHO?
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#28107 - 03/03/05 04:05 AM Re: SSL#10--The Heart of the Cross - Texts and Commentary [Re: sweettrini]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	I am compelled to maintain that theme in all facets of soteriology, because anything less is disservice to God and discouragement to the souls for whom He gave His Son. But you will never find me looking to sneak "works" (the heresy of attributing salvific merit to human will or effort) into the package as my solution to the problematic errors of "divine anger management" theology. It's too much like trying to say we are saved (or not) by how we feel. _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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