There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal
Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite
and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy
of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14;
Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter l:2; 1 Tim, 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

This question seems to belong in "the Son" thread, but it pertains to this thread more, perhaps...

Was Jesus always his Father's Son?

The 12th Volume of the SDABC (Bible Commentary) - that's the Handbook of SDA Theology, insists that he was not... Is that a wise disagreement with accepted Christian thought from early on till Ellen White's death - after which we changed the wording?

A rather complicated topic, I should think. A corollary of Christ's eternal preexistence would seem to preclude a 'beginning,' such as is implied in Sonship. Personally, I believe that Christ had always existed as One with 'Eloah' but, at some point in time, voluntarily, perhaps even at His own instigation, He took upon Himself the status of Sonship and, at a later time, the special relationship with His people as Yahweh. Now, as for 'accepted Christian thought' are you referring to the Nicene Creed?

I don't know if "proving" the Trinity is a worthwhile thing, as it goes in circles with semantics when discussing the topic from the perspective of our Creator being the One True Living God - the I AM that I AM.

I tend to approach the topic from the perspective of a three-dimensional hand interacting with a two-dimensional circle...the lack of the circle's ability to "see" beyond two dimensions causes the interacting fingers of one three-dimensional hand to be observed as one or more separate entities intersecting the two-dimensional world.

Thus, One Creator who is outside our 4-dimensional perceptions of space-time (3 dimensions of space, 1 of time) could be seen as interacting as 3 separate, individual beings intersecting the limited confines of our perceptions/observations of Creation.

That each "intersection" would carry the exact same identity and character of the whole could not be disputed, as also the point each would appear to have a different function in our existence as well. This would be in firm keeping with what we see in the New Testament regarding God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

There...the nerdy, geeky perspective of the Trinity...but it works for me how Three can be One, yet Three, all at the same time, in their intersection with Creation.

Then, there's the point of plurality when God talks to Himself regarding the creating of Man in Gensis...

At the present time, Jesus is a prince, our prince. During the Time of the End he will receive his Kingdom, namely us and our forlorn planet. At that time he becomes the ruler of the Earth, and its good king, then begins the process of turning our ruined world into a tropical greenhouse paradise.

We shouldn't be too shocked if we find out there are other kingdoms out there in space somewhere, with their respective kings.

Maybe the HS is limited to our sphere, maybe it is unbounded. For us, anyway, the Team of Three controls our destinies.

I couldn't agree more. This is one of those issues which we can spend our time and energy dissecting and discussing till the cows come home. However, in all likelihood will understand until we reach the new earth.

And, that's not a bad thing.

I spent the last year or so studying the subject of the nature of Jesus Christ. For what it's worth, the Bible directly calls Jesus "God" in a number of verses. For instance, the only legitmate way to translate the Greek of John 1:1, Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 is that He is God, and that is why virtually all modern translations of those verses read that way. (See NKJV and NIV and compare them with any standard Greek grammars that discuss those verses.)

When it comes to the writings of Ellen White, she wrote in Patriarchs and Prophets that Jesus was the Jehovah of the Old Testament. It is interesting to compare the latest Greek editions of the New Testament at 1 Corinthians 10: 9, where the word Christ is in the place of Lord, or Kurios, meaning that it was Christ whom the Israelites tested in the Wilderness and died from snake bites. By the way, that is how the vast majority of ancient Greek manuscripts read as well as the most ancient, manuscript P46, that is dated AD 200. The translations that read "Lord" do so primarily on the basis of two 4th century manuscripts from Alexandria, the Vaticanus and the Siniaticus.

Dozens of other verses might be referred to as teaching plainly that Christ is fully God.

Quote: "When it comes to the writings of Ellen White, she wrote in Patriarchs and Prophets that Jesus was the Jehovah of the Old Testament."

Meaning Jesus and Jehovah is the SAME person. There Could be No Trinity. Right?

It is clear from a careful study of the Pentateuch, in comparison with the gospels, that Jesus and Jehovah are, indeed, one and the same. However, Christ is the second person of the Godhead. The Godhead is described in the OT as 'Elohim,' the plural of 'Eloah.' Yahweh is the second person of the Godhead, Christ, the express image of the Father's person. The HOly Spirit is the third Person.

Dave

Hi yongttay

Can you please give us an exact page number in Patriarchs and prophets where you stated that Ellen White said "Jesus was the Jehovah of the Old Testament?" I would be interested to read the context of her statement there.

Ted, this is quite an interesting thought to read. I have never heard it before.

To me, the Bible seems to say that this kind of observation/hypotheseis from the physical world would not be able to hold all the keys to the subject of "the Trinity."

It should be noted, I think, that the Bible talks about "the mystery of godliness" and so I don't think we have the means to know, or the need to know everything about "God."

I put "God" in quotations because the Bible tells us "The LORD our God is one LORD..." (Deut.6:4). In some discussions I have had with jehovah's Witnesses, for eg., they tried to use this text to "prove" that there is only "one" God, and His name is Jehovah."

I had a few puzzling questions about all this until the day I sat down and analyzed this text closer. The word "one" as used in this text is intended in a collective sense, as in plural, but more literally meaning "another God." (atleast this is one of several possible renderings). The Hebrew word for "one" here is Strongs #0259: ‘echad ekh-awd’ If you wanted to do some further research on that.

This makes it easier for me to understand the "One God" in three persons concept. My idea here might cast a shadow upon the earlier mentioned concepts of space/time and how it affects us; and of people just thinking they were seeing three Gods; but in reality there was "only one God."

I was always taught that Jesus is just God in human form, and the Holy Spirit is God in spirit form.

Quote cubensis:

"I was always taught that Jesus is just God in human form, and the Holy Spirit is God in spirit form."

Then in what form is God the Father?

Quote David Koot:

"It is clear from a careful study of the Pentateuch, in comparison with the gospels, that Jesus and Jehovah are, indeed, one and the same. However, Christ is the second person of the Godhead. The Godhead is described in the OT as 'Elohim,' the plural of 'Eloah.' Yahweh is the second person of the Godhead, Christ, the express image of the Father's person. The HOly Spirit is the third Person."

Are you implying Jesus, Christ, Jehovah, Yahweh and the second person of the Godhead are all one and the same person?


yongttay

I thought He was....

Absolutely. More than implying.

Quote David Koot:

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Originally Posted By: yongttay

"Are you implying Jesus, Christ, Jehovah, Yahweh and the second person of the Godhead are all one and the same person?"


Absolutely. More than implying.

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Jehovah is also God the Father, the first person of the Godhead.

Therefore Jesus, Christ, Jehovah, Yahweh, the second person of the Godhead, God the Father and the first person of the Godhead are all one and the same person.

Meaning the first person of the Godhead and the second person of the God are one and the SAME person. There Could be No Trinity. Right?

The One we know as Jesus Christ has been called many other names, among which are Michael the Archangel, Michael the great prince, the Messenger of the Covenant, the Angel of Jehovah, and dozens of others. He was sometimes known by the Israelites in the OT as Jehovah. The Jews, of course, also called the Father Jehovah. The Jews did not understand as much about God as we do today because we have the advantage of the New Testament. Revelation is progressive, and as such, it was left for the Greek Scriptures to reveal the totality of what God wanted to reveal about Himself to humankind.

I believe in the Trinity because I have found it to be what the Bible teaches. I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and I believe they are all one God. They are one in purpose. The Godhead expresses itself as three persons. We only know as much about God as He has chosen to reveal to us.

Remember, the term God is a title like king; it is not a personal name. The name Jehovah, or Yahweh, is a reference to God's Eternity and power. It's from a Hebrew word meaning "to be," and signifies that Yahweh is self-existent; that is, He is not dependent on anyone or anything outside of Himself for His existence or being. He is who is He is and will be who He chooses to be. That is true of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All three are equal and co-eternal.

What's confusing to a lot of people is that there are quite a few Christians who believe (a) that Jesus is "a god" but not Jehovah or the God; that is, they believe that Jesus is a creature who was made millions of years ago for the purpose of coming here as God's representative and dying for Adam's sin; and (b) that Jesus Christ is the Son, the Father, and the Holy Ghost.

Throughout the history of the Church, there have been many ways of viewing who Jesus is with respect to God. It took many centuries for the Church to come to a more or less common understanding of these things, and sadly, Christians have even come to blows and killed each other over them.