Deliverance - Adventist Forum and Adventist Chat

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#36080 - 04/18/05 03:06 PM Deliverance
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	I don't know if it is mental illness or demons and I'm tired of trying to figure it out. Nothing works, the pills don't work, the prayers don't work, nothing works and I'm so tired, so so so so SO TIRED.... All i know is it has been going on since 1983 and I want to be free, I am tired of being tortured constantly, please God just make it stop. Just please make it stop. Let me at least have a chance, a fighting chance, to serve You. If I am going to be lost or saved anyway does it really matter? What purpose is there in letting me be tortured like this constantly? It can't be punishment for having served Satan because I never served him till this all started and he made me. I never wanted to be with him, he seduced me. I just want it all to be over, once and for all, please set me free, permanently, I just want to be a normal person and have a normal life and a normal mind the way You intended. God You know I don't have the courage to kill myself so please just end it for me one way or another and make it fast please make it fast. _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#36081 - 04/19/05 05:31 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Sid Registered: 09/27/04 Posts: 1218 Loc: CA	I'm always praying for you Nico. Hang in there.
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#36082 - 04/19/05 05:33 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Michelle Registered: 03/19/01 Posts: 1186	{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}} and prayers, as always. M
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#36083 - 04/19/05 02:14 PM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
aldona Public Nuisance Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 2811 Loc: On the outside, looking in	((((((((Nico))))))))) don't know the answer...will keep praying that the answer will find you... hang in there don't give up aldona _________________________ www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne) Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each month “Man’s mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions.” — Oliver Wendell Holmes
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#36084 - 04/19/05 05:45 PM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Gail Google is my friend Registered: 12/10/02 Posts: 12878 Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa	May the power of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ at whose name every knee shall bow, be felt strongly in your soul at this time. Dear Father, please hear our cry joined together with our sister Nico's, for deliverance from Satan's power. Forgive us of all sins that separate us from You as we cling to Your robe of righteousness You are our Deliverer... and for this we thank You and praise You _________________________ Gail gail@adventistforum.com And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17
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#36085 - 04/19/05 07:44 PM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Clio The King's Daughter Registered: 03/31/05 Posts: 2747 Loc: Alaska	Nico, Oh Nico... it ends, hon, I promise. It ends. Nico are you praying the armor of Abba daily? Nico, I have a friend who was taught not just to serve satan but to channel demons... it was a fight but deliverance and His promises are sure and true. Nico it takes time, unless True Jesus does a sweep and sets all the captives free. But the fact you can CHOOSE to stand for Abba Father and be covered in the blood of the Lamb... is huge ... huge. Abba, I stand in agreement with Nico, requesting as Your daughter deliverance from the torment Nico experiences. Abba, I stand in agreement, united in faith that Nico chooses to be Your Child. Abba, I bind Nico to Your mercy and grace which is new every morning. I bind to Nico's mind, the helment of salvation, which protects her mind from the lies of the evil one. I bind to her chest, the breastplate of righteousness. We thank You for the righteousness You so graciously provide, for we have none of our own. I bind to Nico, the belt of truth. Let her walk in Your truth, grow in Your truth, speak Your truth, and believe only in Your truth. Thank You Jesus that You are the Way, the Truth, and the Life for us. I bind to Nico's feet the shoes of the Gospel of peace. Let her walk comforted in Your peace, as You continue the good work in her, to completion as You have promised. We thank You Jesus that You are the Prince of Peace, and that as joint heirs with You, we inherit Your peace. We long also to be peacemakers, that we may be aclaimed the children of Abba. I bind to Nico's arm the shield of Faith which quenches the fiery darts of the wicked. I thank You Jesus that You are our helper and shield, and that the Psalmist made it so clear. I bind to Nico's hand the sword of the Spirit, the Word made flesh. I thank You Jesus that You are our sword. I bind Nico's heart to Your heart Jesus, that she wields the Sword with compassion and justice, for it is sharper than any two-edged blade. I bind Nico to all these aspects of Jesus, the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. I bind her to the certain knowledge that not only were Your stripes for healing all that was done to her, but also for all that was done by her. Jesus wash her mind in the sea of forgetfulness. We so often forget that it is there... Just as You forget, once You accept us and we accept You, help Nico to forget so the torment leaves her. I bind Nico to the work of the cross and the crucifixion of self, that she may receive all that You died and paid for. Thank You that this has already been done, and that all that remains is the walking out of the path You have ordained for Nico. I bind her to receiving the blessings You have for her, I bind her feet to the paths of righteousness, and I loose her feet from any path You have not ordained for her to walk. I bind Nico's emotions to the peace, joy, comfort, and counsel of the Holy Spirit, and I loose Nico from the emotions of fear, desperation, despair, and sorrow. Fill her with the Joy of the Lord, to be her strength. Thank You for Your blessings. Give Nico peace which passes all understanding. Help her to know in her knower that You are her all in all. I stand united in agreement and in faith with Nico, Father. I remind You of Your promise that prayers prayed united are more effective and powerful than prayers prayed alone. We accept the truth of the power of agreement, we accept the truth of the power of words, and by these words and Your promises, I affirm the truth of this prayer, and the truth of her redemption. Abba, as Your beloved Daughter, I stand and ask, knowing that You have already given, already begun the awesome work You are completing in Nico. I bind a hedge of protection around Nico. Please seal it with True Jesus blood, place Your mighty warrior angels around it, that none may enter save approved by Jesus or the Holy Spirit. I stand in the gap Abba... as promised... till none are lost or captive. Set the captives free, Jesus!!! Set them free! For this is the time of Your coming, of Your Will in the earth. Now is the time and I am eager to see Your Will. I ask this Abba, in the Name of Jesus, the Son Whom we both love, for this precious wounded child of Yours. Bathe her wounds in True Jesus blood, bind them up, heal them, assure her she is no longer an orphan, but a daughter of the king. Amen. Nico... You might want to consider a mikvah... it's a healing reversal for some of the things that happened when you served the adversary.... It will help set you free from some of the issues you are struggling with. Check with an orthodox Jewish congregation in your area, ask for mikvah instruction and see if they will allow you to use their mikvah. If not... let me know... there are other options, that's just the easiest to accomplish. Clio (edited for spelling) Edited by Clio (04/19/05 08:02 PM)
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#36086 - 04/20/05 06:23 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	Quote: Nico, Oh Nico... it ends, hon, I promise. It ends. Nico are you praying the armor of Abba daily? Nico, I have a friend who was taught not just to serve satan but to channel demons... it was a fight but deliverance and His promises are sure and true. Nico it takes time, unless True Jesus does a sweep and sets all the captives free. But the fact you can CHOOSE to stand for Abba Father and be covered in the blood of the Lamb... is huge ... huge. I also was a channel, a sexually-activated one to be specific. I wanted to be "owned and operated" and became entirely addicted to the enslavement. Even now I can barely speak/write those words because to even say it brings it so close I can feel myself slip away and slip "into" that frame of mind. The real war is there, the real danger zone, in the pit of my own ungodly desires: the fact that I liked it and wanted it and God help me, could like and want it still unless He delivers me not only from "them" but from myself in the most profound way. And maybe that's what some of this suffering is about, to replace those associations of sinful pleasure with negative associations, to develop an aversion or a disliking in me which will increase my determination to seal that door shut and not look back. Because I am weak and it is too easy for me to look back. I've done it so many times before already. But with this same breath I tell you I don't want to be this way. I want to be a "channel" of Truth and Light and Righteousness. I want to be GOD'S "channel" in every sense of the word like Jesus, like Moses, like Elijah, like Isaiah or Jeremiah. His ayin and nabi. The fact of the matter is there is nothing back there in the darkness for me to go back to. It would take too long to explain but my days of pleasure with satan came to an end already. If I were to go back at this point, it would only be to my own destruction, to torment without pleasure, to pure hell with no reprieve. If I were to be seduced it would all be a lie, there would be no sweet lover waiting for me there, only a cold, calculating enemy who would treat me like an enemy with full power to do to me whatever a sadistic enemy wants to do. I don't want to go back to him anyway, I'm just saying even if I did there is nothing to go back to. God destroyed the entire thing seven years ago. But I am still tormented and "haunted" by parasites in my thoughts, things interfering with my ability to grow in knowledge and conversation and relationship with the Lord. I still feel so utterly separated from God, even when I am seeking Him, in prayer or reading scripture or EGW, I still feel like I am only seeing what I have already lost for all eternity, I still feel on the other side of a closed and locked door. Does this make any sense? I know I sound so horribly self-absorbed and self-centered and I hate it, but I can't help it. I just want and need to be set free and made to know it is not too late for me, because I'm convinced it is and i can't find anything that will unconvince me (been like this since 1983 which is why I served Satan in the first place). What is this mikvah thing, tell me more about that? p.s. thank you all for your prayers _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#36087 - 04/20/05 07:26 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Sid Registered: 09/27/04 Posts: 1218 Loc: CA	I think you are God's channel Nico. You help me out in so many ways, and teach me many things about Him. I see real fruit from you. You have so many insights. I'm so glad I've met you here and I continue to pray for you, we need you.
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#36088 - 04/20/05 07:38 PM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Clio The King's Daughter Registered: 03/31/05 Posts: 2747 Loc: Alaska	Nico - I can understand, perhaps better than you think. What you describe is one of the levels to which illuminati slaves can be brought to, even without the generational conservation of occult energy in their DNA. In other words, anyone can be made to become what you describe, but you have to be BRED for thousands of years to become a mother of darkness. My friend who I am currently studying with and counseling was a MoD. Nico... how I wish I were closer and could study and counsel with you. You are quite correct when you speak of spiritual parasites. My friend and I often refer to them as "leeches". They are low-level demonics attracted to the "break" in your soul. Let me see if I can explain clearly. We have our physical body.. the first shell. We have our soul - mind, will, emotions - that is like a crystal dome over our spirit, or how we interact with Abba and the Lamb. Sex magick takes advantage of a universal spiritual principle relating to these three parts of us. In the Bible it is outlined as the laws against spiritual immorality. Christians see is as a fundamental list of "don't's". There is a real good reason for it... and you are sensing it. When a person engages in sex, at the moment of orgasm, the two souls touch, and thin, and things can be exchanged. Abba planned that it would be between a man and a woman, bound in holy matrimony, blessed by Him, and they would exchange holiness, becoming ever more one with one another and with him. The adversary, knowing about this universal spiritual principle, has caused his dark siders to use it and the sex magick his side created to power occult rituals and ultimately power the revelation of the Anti-Christ. It is at the moment of orgasm that demonic entities can be layered in to unwitting individuals, or even the participants. This is a basic skill taught to all sex magick practioners who will be used in rituals. But even if no deliberate layering of the demonic entities takes place, the soul "dome" is damaged by the misapplication of the spiritual principle... each and every time. When this happens, a "crack" is formed. And leeches... low level demonic entities, attach themselves... and start feeding. They feed on the spirit within. If left unattended, they will eventually break through to the spirit and start feeding from the inside out. You are sensing them as parasites because you were trained to know them and so are senstive to them. Parasites is a very good term.... very similar to our leech analogy. To get rid of them, as Jesus brings to mind each instance, do not wallow in guilt, immediately pray something like this: Jesus, I recognize that you are telling me I need to specifically ask Your forgiveness for this, and turn away from it. I choose to turn from it, repent, and ask forgiveness. I know there are leeches on me, and I cannot remove them of myself. Wash me clean in the Blood of the Lamb, slain from the very foundation of the world. Remove these leeches Jesus, take and do with them what You will. Help me to accept Your forgiveness and Your promise. You have said You came to save, not to condemn, and there is no condemnation in You. I accept this. Amen. ((((Nico)))) safe hugs for you You are not alone... nor are you an orphan. You are an accepted Daughter of the King, and He's trying to tell you how to get past this.... Clio _________________________ A heart where He alone has first place.
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#36089 - 04/20/05 07:52 PM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Clio The King's Daughter Registered: 03/31/05 Posts: 2747 Loc: Alaska	Mikvah.... Hmmmm I'm not as clear on it as I would like to be for myself... having never completed a mikvah ceremony. It is an orthodox Jewish ceremony to move one from ritual unpurity to ritual purity. When my friend and I reached a point in her healing journey where she was no longer triggered by the Jewish holidays, (long story there)we independently of each other become convicted that what we needed was a mikvah because of where we had been. Neither of us felt baptism was sufficient. Turns out, after extensive research, and much prayer we were correct. A mikvah is the forerunner of baptism, and for most Christians, unless they have a background like yours, or like me have stood in the gap for an extended period of time for someone with generational curses in their life, or who has been picking off leeches with Jesus help, is not required. A mikvah can only be done in primal waters, or in a specially constructed mikvah tank that is constantly replenished by primal waters. A mikvah is not a bath... in fact, prior to mikvah, the person should be as completely clean as it is possible to be. Shaved legs, trimmed and cleaned nails, washed hair... etc. Then they should walk naked into the mikvah, and submerge themselves totally in the living water. Even their hair must be submerged. Rise up, pray and acknowledge Abba and the Lamb and the Holy Spirit, bless them with all that is within you. Do this between 3 - 7 times, listening to the Holy Spirit within you, and praying. Contemplate the spiritual principle of Jesus being the living water, understand you are submerging yourself in the very symbol He used to describe who and what He is to a dry and thirsty land. Accept the joy that wells up in you. I have learned that we, as SDA's truly do perish for lack of knowledge. I am in the process of learning about and applying the spiritual principle of Passover mercies... there is something special there, and Abba has confirmed it. I am pleading it for the life of my son. I know the mikvah is another such principle... the only reason I have not completed one myself is that the nearest mikvah pool is 300 miles away, and the streams, rivers, and lakes are still frozen here. But it will be soon.. Abba is preparing my spirit, and it leaps within me as I tell you of this. Clio Edited by Clio (04/20/05 07:53 PM) _________________________ A heart where He alone has first place.
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#36090 - 04/21/05 12:33 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	Quote: I can understand, perhaps better than you think. What you describe is one of the levels to which illuminati slaves can be brought to, even without the generational conservation of occult energy in their DNA. In other words, anyone can be made to become what you describe, but you have to be BRED for thousands of years to become a mother of darkness. My friend who I am currently studying with and counseling was a MoD. Clio, this is, I think, yet another game the enemy likes to play. There are so many different and diverse occult traditions out there and each uses its own terminology. There is no one set of terms that is universal to them all, and the enemy likes to play one against another, especially for people who have sought to get out and get free, pitting this term against that one and playing upon points of perverse pride -- who was further gone, who was higher up, who was a this and who was a that. I happen to know it is all HORSE MANURE (if you'll pardon the strong language). It's yet another of the enemy's tricks to excite pride in darkness and I'm not playing. Your friend's term "MoD" is meaningless where I come from, as I'm sure terms I might use to describe my experiences might be meaningless to her. I was (still am, technically) an initiate of Ordo Templi Orientis and a chartered initiator in the Man of Earth triad in that tradition. I practiced ceremonial magick primarily in the Enochian, Goetic, and planetary systems. In my private relationship with Satan I regarded myself as supreme among any and all claiming to know him, and from what I experienced he vouched for this, constantly telling me how much he loved me, how special I was, how no one in the whole world or in all history had ever understood him the way I did, etc. It was all some very heady stuff. I had the traditions I practiced and was initiated into, then there were my own private beliefs centering around my secret identity and my relationship with Lucifer and my destiny and purpose here on earth. I believed myself to be the incarnation of the 156 current which is also known as Babalon (spelled that way on purpose), the Sacred Whore. There were prophecies foretelling my coming to this world and everything -- I was really into this whole thing deep. It consumed my entire life for nearly 2 decades. That's why I don't want to play the pride game or the comparison game between myself and your friend or anyone else who has had some "experience" in this "stuff". The book of Revelation cautions against taking pride in knowing the "deep things of Satan" so let's just not go there OK? I don't mean to sound harsh with you, it's for my own good that I'm speaking so plainly, so I don't let myself get caught in that trap. I am also very keenly aware of how sex magick works as I might as well have invented it or at least written the book on it. I had sexual communion with Satan regularly and received communication directly from Satan -- or so I believed -- and instruction directly from him as well. That was my experience anyway, the way I experienced and perceived it. I know he is a deceiver so I'm aware things might not have been precisely as I perceived them but that is what I honestly experienced and perceived. In other words, going into this, nothing was hidden from me; I wasn't brainwashed in any sense of the word but went into it with open eyes and eager willingness to do and be anything Satan desired of me. I was utterly, madly, completely in love with him, and a willing slave to that love. I do appreciate your explanation though because it shows me you understand something of how it (sex magick) operates as well. Which lets me know I can communicate with you to some degree and have you grasp what I'm talking about -- so that's a good start. Now, with that out of the way ... Quote: The adversary, knowing about this universal spiritual principle, has caused his dark siders to use it and the sex magick his side created to power occult rituals and ultimately power the revelation of the Anti-Christ. It is at the moment of orgasm that demonic entities can be layered in to unwitting individuals, or even the participants. Or willing sex magickians who are seeking precisely that experience, to be "owned and operated" as living channels, embodiments, apotheoses of the "gods" or "godforms" they serve, or currents or formulae they seek to manifest on the earth. In my case I wanted to be a living enfleshment of my Master's will and power, and transmit the same lust/love enslavement dynamic he manifested upon me to other people through engaging them in three-way sexual contact between themselves, myself, and Satan. Among other things. That was just part of it. Quote: This is a basic skill taught to all sex magick practioners who will be used in rituals. But even if no deliberate layering of the demonic entities takes place, the soul "dome" is damaged by the misapplication of the spiritual principle... each and every time. When this happens, a "crack" is formed. And leeches... low level demonic entities, attach themselves... and start feeding. They feed on the spirit within. If left unattended, they will eventually break through to the spirit and start feeding from the inside out. You are sensing them as parasites because you were trained to know them and so are senstive to them. Parasites is a very good term.... very similar to our leech analogy. Clio. I have had people at times ask me whether I ever tried to commit suicide or whether I felt like committing suicide (when inquiring about my moods, mental health, etc.) I have but one answer: I have already committed suicide. I am completely dead inside. No passion, no joy, no compassion, no life, there is no life in this body. I have no spirit. I was dealt a deadly wound in 1998 that could not be healed and since that time I have been as the walking dead. I have no passion, neither of sex nor of spirit, neither sexual nor spiritual; there is no life in this body. The only things I feel are pain and fear. I am dead and in hell. Quote: To get rid of them, as Jesus brings to mind each instance, do not wallow in guilt, immediately pray something like this: I don't understand these instructions. I am not aware of wallowing in guilt, I would not know how to discern or detect such a thing. I feel only pain and fear, and am haunted by remorse and regret, but I can no more detect or control these states of mind than I can bring myself back to life. Quote: Jesus, I recognize that you are telling me I need to specifically ask Your forgiveness for this, and turn away from it. I choose to turn from it, repent, and ask forgiveness. I know there are leeches on me, and I cannot remove them of myself. Wash me clean in the Blood of the Lamb, slain from the very foundation of the world. Remove these leeches Jesus, take and do with them what You will. Help me to accept Your forgiveness and Your promise. You have said You came to save, not to condemn, and there is no condemnation in You. I accept this. I don't use those exact words but I do already pray similar things. There is no relief. I do appreciate you caring though. May Yahweh bless you for your kindness to this wretched creature that I am. Nico _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#36091 - 04/21/05 01:08 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
aldona Public Nuisance Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 2811 Loc: On the outside, looking in	mikvah? correct me if I'm wrong, but based on my reading about orthodox Judaism isn't that what women use as their ritual bath after completing menstruation? (to mark the fact that they are no longer "unclean".) aldona _________________________ www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne) Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each month “Man’s mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions.” — Oliver Wendell Holmes
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#36092 - 04/21/05 01:12 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: rmarte]
aldona Public Nuisance Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 2811 Loc: On the outside, looking in	here is a Jewish website where you can find a mikvah in your area... Global Mikvah Directory aldona _________________________ www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne) Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each month “Man’s mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions.” — Oliver Wendell Holmes
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#36093 - 04/21/05 02:37 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Clio The King's Daughter Registered: 03/31/05 Posts: 2747 Loc: Alaska	If I gave you the impression I wanted to play a pride game with you I am very sorry. Not knowing your tradition, or back-ground, I based what I said solely on your first post, trying to establish a foundation on which to continue our discussion. You may accept it or not. I am familiar with the Ordo Templi Orientis and the Man of Earth triad, and can quite accurately place them in the hierarchy. Thank you for telling me your postioning... it helps to understand where you are coming from. If you are interested in the hierarchy from the top down I can send you the structure of the pyramid. When you say "I feel only pain and fear, and am haunted by remorse and regret, but I can no more detect or control these states of mind than I can bring myself back to life." that quite accurately states the emotional content of what I phrased wallowing in guilt. At least that's how I experienced it. It is not necessary for you to control that state of mind. Only when it comes upon you, repent specifically for whatever instance in the top of your mind and give it and all leeches associated with it to Jesus. If you don't understand it, use my prayer as a training wheel prayer until you start to experience the healing and freedom... sometimes by doing we are brought to greater understanding. So many times I've said, "Abba? I did what You said, but... what just happened here?" And shortly along will come someone who points out a verse, provides an inspired book that explains, or adds a piece to the puzzle, and I start to understand. Quote: I am completely dead inside. No passion, no joy, no compassion, no life, there is no life in this body. I have no spirit. Yes... I know this feeling. But as long as you can choose to seek the Lamb and Abba, there is still a protected spark of the Spirit with which He endowed you at birth, and you are not beyond His healing. Do you believe that Abba is the source of all life? There is nothing to prevent Him from healing that deadly wound. To believe you cannot be healed from it, is to buy into the lies they taught you. Abba is Supreme, He is the Author of ALL life, ALL Love, and our emotions, just like all else we have and are, are gifts from Him. There will be relief Nico. His promise is sure... He promises in Jeremiah 29:11-13 that all those who seek HIM will find HIM. Do not give up, nor in. You are not an orphan, you are HIS child. Clio _________________________ A heart where He alone has first place.
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#36094 - 04/21/05 02:45 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: rmarte]
Clio The King's Daughter Registered: 03/31/05 Posts: 2747 Loc: Alaska	Yes aldona... it is one use for a mikvah. But the total purpose of a mikvah is to move one from a state of ritual impurity to a state of ritual purity. When Aaron and his sons were anointed as priests, they first underwent a mikvah. There are other instances in the Bible... and while Jesus was baptized... if you look at all of the requirements, He was baptized in living waters, which is the primary requirement for a mikvah. There is much research on mikvahs availanble. While the most common use is for family purity, utensils, and in some orthodox communities for men before certain things, it has much broader spiritual implications when someone has been exposed to a perversion of holy baptism... such as a blood baptism. A mikvah is honored by Abba Father as a healing reversal of the perversion of a blood baptism. Clio _________________________ A heart where He alone has first place.
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#36095 - 04/21/05 05:00 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me. 12 For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me. 13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. -- Psalm 40:11-13 _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#36096 - 04/21/05 05:28 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	Quote: If I gave you the impression I wanted to play a pride game with you I am very sorry. Not knowing your tradition, or back-ground, I based what I said solely on your first post, trying to establish a foundation on which to continue our discussion. You may accept it or not. Please don't be upset with me Clio. Those are/were my issues, and my comments were more directed at myself and the adversary than at you. I can't help what I see but that doesn't mean I ascribe it to the person or appearances if you know what I mean. What I'm seeing is what Satan wants to do to me with something. It does not mean there is any fault on your part. Quote: I am familiar with the Ordo Templi Orientis and the Man of Earth triad, and can quite accurately place them in the hierarchy. OK, so you'll know what I mean when I say I was/am a K.E.W. Quote: Thank you for telling me your postioning... it helps to understand where you are coming from. Right, but you also need to understand (I mean if you care to understand me, that is!) that O.T.O. was just the outward public/fellowship expression of my own personal beliefs. You probably know Thelema is very individualistic in nature: "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." I wove my O.T.O. "career" in with my own personal beliefs and practices, and my personal relationship with Satan. Quote: If you are interested in the hierarchy from the top down I can send you the structure of the pyramid. Already got one. Quote: When you say "I feel only pain and fear, and am haunted by remorse and regret, but I can no more detect or control these states of mind than I can bring myself back to life." that quite accurately states the emotional content of what I phrased wallowing in guilt. At least that's how I experienced it. It is not necessary for you to control that state of mind. Only when it comes upon you, repent specifically for whatever instance in the top of your mind and give it and all leeches associated with it to Jesus. OK I will try. Usually it is not attached to anything specific, though. It just "IS". Quote: So many times I've said, "Abba? I did what You said, but... what just happened here?" And shortly along will come someone who points out a verse, provides an inspired book that explains, or adds a piece to the puzzle, and I start to understand. Ah yes, I well remember those halcyon days. I miss those kinds of experiences terribly. Quote: ... as long as you can choose to seek the Lamb and Abba, there is still a protected spark of the Spirit with which He endowed you at birth, and you are not beyond His healing. Do you believe that Abba is the source of all life? There is nothing to prevent Him from healing that deadly wound. I want and need to EXPERIENCE that healing though. Just pretending it's there because it "could" be (is possible) is NOT ENOUGH. IT DOES NOT WORK. Quote: To believe you cannot be healed from it, is to buy into the lies they taught you. Abba is Supreme, He is the Author of ALL life, ALL Love, and our emotions, just like all else we have and are, are gifts from Him. But it's His choice, and He is not communicating with me anymore. Quote: There will be relief Nico. His promise is sure... He promises in Jeremiah 29:11-13 that all those who seek HIM will find HIM. Do not give up, nor in. You are not an orphan, you are HIS child. I believe His promise ... but when? I want to wake up back where I was when He first found me and I first fell in love with Him. Sure I can't be 16 again, I don't expect that, but I want that ALIVEness, that sense of His presence, that solid -POW- connectedness with Him all sure and TIGHT. _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#36097 - 04/21/05 07:03 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	sorry all i don't mean to be difficult _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#36098 - 04/22/05 03:56 PM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Anonymous Unregistered	Hi Nico, I hear your prayers and want to help but feel really inadequate. I don’t pretend to know anything about what you are going through because, frankly, I don’t. The only thing that I do know is that you are hurting real bad. Having said all of that, I prayed and asked God if there is something that I can say which may help. What came to mind was the demons that I have struggled with. My experience has been, the more I try to eliminate them the more they seem to take hold. I am not sure exactly how it happened, but one day, I decided to acknowledge them, rather than fight them. For example, I might have said something like: “I know that, in the past, you have played a big part in my life and that I enjoyed it. It was wrong, and I have since chosen to follow Jesus and will not be talking to you about this matter again”. I found if I was attacked again I just kept saying “I am not talking about it”. Whatever you do, keep it short. When I think about how Jesus conversed with Satan, I realized that he acknowledged Satans presence and spoke to him as he would others, then he reasonably set His boundaries. I found doing the same thing worked for me. No fancy prayers, naming and claiming, binding and loosing etc, just following Jesus example. I don’t know where you stand in this regard, but I found that I frequently did not feel God’s presence in my life. I was up and down like a yoyo, more down than up. I wanted to feel how I used to feel. After discussing this with a fellow church member, I was kindly told that our relationship with God should not be based on feelings; it should be a faith relationship. When I heard this it suddenly dawned on me that faith is stable whereas feelings are all over the place, just like my relationship with God. Warm fuzzies are good, but when they are not there I now realize that it does not have to affect my faith in God. Hope this makes sense and is helpful (and you are not being difficult) God bless and keep you BAPM
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#36099 - 04/22/05 06:40 PM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Clio The King's Daughter Registered: 03/31/05 Posts: 2747 Loc: Alaska	You're not being difficult Nico... You're searching with sincerity. And Abba rewards that. BAPM has some good advice too. And what she says about emotions mirrors Abba's teaching to me as well. I found a measure of peace when I realized the Bible was right when it talked about nothing being more deceitful than the heart of man. And where do we "feel" our emotions? In our "heart"! It was through the experience of coming to realize that faith is a choice and not a feeling, that freedom began to be manifest in my life. I still am often concerned abount my seeming lack of emotions, but I have no doubt about my faith. I CHOOSE daily to belong to Abba, not the adversary. My emotions may be all over the charts, especially the negative ones, but my faith, my choice to trust Him and be in all things for Him, never wavers. Clio _________________________ A heart where He alone has first place.
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#36100 - 04/24/05 05:01 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Joe Knapp Registered: 03/18/00 Posts: 2459 Loc: Michigan,USA	I am in shock !!! I will be praying several times a day Nico. _________________________ The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases HIM." John 8:29
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#36101 - 04/24/05 06:05 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Inga Joyful in Him Registered: 05/30/04 Posts: 197 Loc: British Columbia, Canada	Dear Nico, I haven't been around ClubAdventist for a while, but checked in yesterday and read a few of your posts, among others. I thought. Nico has changed -- no histrionics, just straight-forward, honest sharing and some really helpful insights. (I know that in the past you often wrote with insight, but I sense something different now.) And now I saw this thread, and I can see what it is. You recognize something in yourself, and you have made a conscious decision not to go there, not to nurture your pride in your special role in the occult. I believe that the Holy Spirit is active in your life. You've already changed significantly in the last several months, and if you persevere, you will again experience the joy of his salvation. (See Psalm 51.) While I cannot know exactly how you feel, I sense your anguish. Please know that as long as you want to serve God, you are not outside the reach of His grace. IOW, you have not committed "the unpardonable sin." His Spirit is still at work in your life. That feeling of being emotionally and spiritually "dead" can be exhaustion and/or depression. You mention that you are on medications. Even if they are helping you (and apparently they do, according to your sharing), there are natural ways to combat depression, including good nutrition, sunlight, regular exercise, and the sleep that comes after exercise. These ways actually restore your body, which results in better emotional, spiritual and mental health as well. (For me, personally, exercise is extremely important.) Remember that Jesus said that we need to become like little children to inherit the Kingdom. We need to have the simplicity and faith of a little child. That's it. And that's all. No fancy prayers or binding of demons or spirits or "leeches," or anything similar. Being saved does not require specialized knowledge. It just requires whole-hearted commitment. I do not know your life situation, but I do know from experience that very often we do not recognize the deceitfulness of our own hearts and God needs to bring things to our consciousness gradually. You have dealt with your pride in being "special" in Satan's realm. Hold on to the insight you have received and now focus on Christ and His love for you. If something seems to be blocking your connection with Christ, ask Him what it is, knowing it may be something you're still holding on to that you don't want to give up. (Anything but this, Lord, may be your thinking.) We are not Christ's unless we are Christ's fully. I know that if you determine to do nothing that God cannot approve and hold nothing back from Him, you will find peace. It may not be the same kind of energy you experienced when you were younger. But it will surely be a settled peace and conviction in your soul that God has forgiven you and accepted you. I see some practical advice in several of the posts in this thread. The Holy Spirit will reveal to you just what applies to you. I do know that who and what we focus on determines our destination. So please focus on Christ and His Word -- not on His enemy, and you will surely draw closer to Him. I am praying for you right now, dear Nico. May you sense the presence of the Holy Spirit with you. And may He give you the humility and patience to persevere in seeking Him even when you do not feel what you think you should feel. Trust Him to stay by you during this "dry" time. In His love, Inga PS Nico, I loved your "Prodigal Son" post in the "Modestly Fat" thread. Right on! _________________________ "Worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of water." Rev. 14:7
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#36102 - 04/25/05 03:00 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	I was not aware my previous posts were being regarded as mere histrionics, but I'm glad your perception has changed in that regard anyway, Inga. And I appreciate the things you shared. What is really upsetting for me is what I encounter when I try to pray sometimes. I don't know if it is God, Satan, or my own sick mind, but whatever it is, it frightens and upsets me terribly. It is something that starts off acting like God but then it changes on me. Now, I know they say Satan can't read our minds so that would mean he can't have "telepathic" (silent) conversations with us imitating God, right? So that means either this twisted creature IS God, talking to me, isolating me, or it is some projection of my own sick mind and I can't shut it off. I guess the latter proposition is less upsetting than the former but it makes it terribly hard to know whether I'm engaging in a season of fruitful self-examination and repentance or some bizarre, esoteric form of self-torture. I wish I could reproduce these "conversations" so I would not be isolated in them, so someone else would see and know what is going on and understand why I find it so frightening and upsetting, maybe even help me sort it out, but it only takes place deep inside me and I can't get it "out" to show it to anyone in terms of the specifics involved. I was isolated like this in my head and kept up till past 2 a.m. last night unable to sleep. It would shift in and out from being the God I know (or at least the One I believe in) to being this weird, petty, vain, twisted being, and then I would come out of it and it would be God again, or just my own thoughts (my normal thoughts not this other being inside them). This is so hard to describe so as to enable anyone else to understand it that I don't know what to do. I want to be able to sleep without being tormented. If God is really weeding my garden then I want to be open to that because I know even if it hurts during the process there will be peace and freedom in the end, but I get confused when the "gardener" stops acting like the loving Holy Spirit and starts acting like this other bizarre being. (Am I making ANY sense???) All I know is I want to be able to sleep normally and I want to be able to pray normally and I want to be called to prayer by the Holy Spirit and able to know what to pray and how. And I want to experience (see how well she has learned NOT to use the word "feel" in order to avoid automatic invalidations from the left-brain church) the Holy Spirit activating me and bringing me into the mind where I eagerly want to devour scripture and be in prayer like things used to be. Because when I try to go on my own steam I just can't connect at all, it's all empty. Or else I get this big torture session like I described, that's even worse. SIGH. _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#36103 - 04/25/05 04:52 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Sid Registered: 09/27/04 Posts: 1218 Loc: CA	Hang in there my friend, I am praying for you.
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#36104 - 04/25/05 05:12 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Gail Google is my friend Registered: 12/10/02 Posts: 12878 Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa	Yes, and your prayer in the other thread sounded fine I would like to second Sid's encouragement and say, Hang in there _________________________ Gail gail@adventistforum.com And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17
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#36105 - 04/25/05 08:03 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Inga Joyful in Him Registered: 05/30/04 Posts: 197 Loc: British Columbia, Canada	Dear Nico, Quote: I was not aware my previous posts were being regarded as mere histrionics Please forgive me for leaving so much room for misunderstanding. No, I did not regard your previous posts as "mere histrionics," but I think you'd probably admit yourself that you have a real flair for histrionics. There's no "mere" about it. Quote: What is really upsetting for me is what I encounter when I try to pray sometimes. I don't know if it is God, Satan, or my own sick mind, but whatever it is, it frightens and upsets me terribly. It is something that starts off acting like God but then it changes on me. Now, I know they say Satan can't read our minds so that would mean he can't have "telepathic" (silent) conversations with us imitating God, right? So that means either this twisted creature IS God, talking to me, isolating me, or it is some projection of my own sick mind and I can't shut it off. I guess the latter proposition is less upsetting than the former but it makes it terribly hard to know whether I'm engaging in a season of fruitful self-examination and repentance or some bizarre, esoteric form of self-torture. I wish I could reproduce these "conversations" so I would not be isolated in them, so someone else would see and know what is going on and understand why I find it so frightening and upsetting, maybe even help me sort it out, but it only takes place deep inside me and I can't get it "out" to show it to anyone in terms of the specifics involved. I was isolated like this in my head and kept up till past 2 a.m. last night unable to sleep. It would shift in and out from being the God I know (or at least the One I believe in) to being this weird, petty, vain, twisted being, and then I would come out of it and it would be God again, or just my own thoughts (my normal thoughts not this other being inside them). This is so hard to describe so as to enable anyone else to understand it that I don't know what to do. I want to be able to sleep without being tormented. If God is really weeding my garden then I want to be open to that because I know even if it hurts during the process there will be peace and freedom in the end, but I get confused when the "gardener" stops acting like the loving Holy Spirit and starts acting like this other bizarre being. (Am I making ANY sense???) You're making lots of sense, Nico. The only thing I can be sure of at this distance is that what you experience doesn't sound like anything God would do to you. The Holy Spirit does come to convict of sin, among other things, and that leaves you with the conviction that you need to change something. It will always be something you can do, with His help, though you may not like to do it. What you describe sounds nothing like that. You've covered the other options too, and it could be either of the other two. While Satan cannot read your thoughts, I suspect he can guess very well. Just like he can bring temptations to our minds, so I'm sure he can insert thoughts/words that interfere with our prayers. I hesitate to make any recommendations here because I have no way of knowing what's actually going on. I can make a suggestion based on my own experience. When I was at my wits' end in my own life and my marriage, I went to God and said, "I give up... I can only throw myself on your mercy, Father. If there's anything in my life that needs changing, please show me!" It was as if God answered, "Now there's a prayer I can answer!" So He showed me! And it wasn't a pretty picture, because He showed me how utterly self-centered and selfish I was. There was nothing in me at all deserving of His grace (and there still isn't) ... And, yes, with time, He showed me some specifics too. If you can entertain the possibility that there's still something in your life that allows the devil some kind of claim on you, take it to God in the same manner, and ask Him to show you what it is and then ask Him for the strength to give it up, whatever it is ... Quote: All I know is I want to be able to sleep normally [This is written after the rest of the note... kind of a P.S. but it fit in here.] H'mm ... another very practical suggestion occurs to me. Dickens was very aware of the possibility, as it is mentioned in A Christmas Carol, if I remember correctly. When you go to bed and try to sleep with undigested food in your stomach, it can make for an uneasy sleep, and there's no accounting for what our mind can do to us when not under our conscious control. Neither God nor the devil needs to have anything to do with it. While we normally do not remember dreams, if we do not sleep soundly, the kind of mental torture you share can happen. [This may not be applicable to your current problem, but it works just as I am sharing here ...] I know I do not sleep well if I eat too close to bed time. While you may not have changed your habits since you were younger, your body may very well have changed on you. If this does seem to apply, try to make sure that nothing except water, or possibly some warm milk or herbal "sleepy-time" tea (no coffee, soft drinks, or green or black tea) enters your mouth for four hours before bed time. Quote: and I want to be able to pray normally and I want to be called to prayer by the Holy Spirit and able to know what to pray and how. And I want to experience (see how well she has learned NOT to use the word "feel" in order to avoid automatic invalidations from the left-brain church) Yes, many of us tend to be left-brained, and we need to be reminded that a relationship with God is more than intellectual assent. It involves the whole being, including our emotions. Quote: the Holy Spirit activating me and bringing me into the mind where I eagerly want to devour scripture and be in prayer like things used to be. Because when I try to go on my own steam I just can't connect at all, it's all empty. What do you mean by going on your own steam? While a relationship with God involves our emotions, that's not all it is. Sometimes I may not "feel" like studying the Bible, but when I make the time and ask that He speak to me through it, I find that He does. It's a like any other relationship: We don't always feel "in love" or really excited about the relationship, but we do loving and responsible things because we've made a commitment. Feeling often follows action, rather than the other way around. Does that make any sense to you? I know that what you describe is the ideal. It's the "first-love" experience. Perhaps now, though, you need to settle into the "working love" -- the kind that works on principle, rather than feeling. (I'm not knocking feeling. As I said, I find it follows action. I found that even worked in my marriage when the feeling was gone. I started to do the loving things again, and my feelings followed. It works that way with God too. Just do hang in there!) Quote: Or else I get this big torture session like I described, that's even worse. I'm convinced that that is something the Lord doesn't want you to continue to go through! I will be praying for you. In His love, Inga _________________________ "Worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of water." Rev. 14:7
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#36106 - 04/25/05 09:45 AM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Jeannieb43 Princess of Pasadena Registered: 12/29/01 Posts: 2225 Loc: California	Dear, dear Nico, I just found this thread and have read it all through just now. I'm praying for your peace of mind, and for your strength to withstand this mental intrusion. My only contribution has to be from what my DH (a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst who was also a deeply spiritual Christian) explained to me about this type of mental disturbance. We saw the movie "A Beautiful Mind," and DH told me that that movie was a perfect portrayal of hallucinations. Sometimes the hallucinations are visual, sometimes auditory, and sometimes only mental. But they are perceived as authentic. Here's where I think your "telepathic conversations with Satan" may be coming from: your chemical imbalance. It's definitely not God who's tormenting you thus; and (as we've been taught), Satan can't read minds [though he's an expert at reading our body language, so he really does understand what we're thinking more than we may realize]. So if you can, with the help of your pdoc and your meds, can you just resolve not to pay any attention to those demons within you -- because, you can remind yourself constantly, they are not real. They truly don't exist. They're a figment of mental wanderings. I know it's possible to make up one's mind to disregard those things, because John Nash himself was able to do that. DH told me he has studied the John Nash case, and that very few people (Nash is the only one DH knew of) are able to disregard their demons without the help of medication. But Nash did it. He constantly told himself the hallucinations were not real, and he was by sheer exercise of will, able to live above those hallucinations. Then as he got older, the hallucinations became less frequent. [I'm not suggesting you go without your meds--far from it! Only that perhaps this may help, as an ancillary approach, along with your meds.] I'd be happy to PM you with this info, rather than post it, but I can't access your PM. But there's nothing here to be ashamed of. In fact, I'm constantly amazed at your genius [John Nash too was a mental genius]. So there's plenty there for you to work with, even after you disregard what you know to be false.... just don't give up! Everybody here admires you. Hugs and Christian love. _________________________ Jeannie ...Change is inevitable; growth is optional....
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#36107 - 04/25/05 03:55 PM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	Well I can do that -- say short, simple prayers for someone else on the spur of the moment. It's only if I attempt to spend any real quality time with God personally that things go "south" really fast. In two different ways, either the torture I tried to describe or just a complete empty disconnected place where I may as well be alone in an empty room talking to myself. Or worse, because at least if that were the case I would be there to listen; there is NO ONE there to listen when that happens. I went to a seminar about prayer this past weekend (Friday evening and Sabbath) at a local church. It was held by Ron Halverson. One of the things he quoted really spoke to me. It was, "Unbelievers don't pray because they are afraid God will really be there; believers don't pray because they are afraid God will really NOT be there." I fall into the latter category. I try to pray but it's like God just isn't there, isn't real, and I hate coming up against that, so it develops an aversion reaction inside me and makes it harder and harder for me to try to spend time in prayer or to focus on anything at all when I do try to pray. Then with everything so empty and disconnected, my own attempts to pray just sound ludicrous to myself, so superstitious, so drippy and "religiony" like I'm some backwater uneducated hick in a mountain folk cargo cult. Even the things they tell us we should pray sound like superstition to me, like "pleading the blood of Christ" and "praying the armor of God." (Although I have to say one good thing about such things is they give me something to focus on when I'm trying to pray and my mind is flying off in 13,000 different directions at once. The Psalms are even better in this regard.) I feel like I'm under heavy-duty satanic attack and then even that sounds ridiculous to me, like "histrionics" as Inga put it. And I'm hideously self-conscious about all of this because we live in a world where people automatically attribute deliberation to one's thoughts or emotions. It's like you're supposed to be accountable for what you think and feel, or like what you think and feel is supposed to "define who you are" to others. So if I think about how superstitious this or that sounds, someone is bound to think that I really think that, as in, I really hold that view. When in reality, what is going on is that I have no control over my own mind or where it goes or how it feels or thinks, and it travels in areas I would not necessarily choose, and I have NO CONTROL OVER THAT. So it does NOT mean that I'm secretly sitting here pooh-poohing religion. It means I can't HELP how I feel at times or how things "feel to" me, and that's just one example. I'm NOT accountable for this because it is NOT MY CHOICE and it is NOT MY FAULT. It's just what goes on that I'm forced to endure and I don't know why. I'm tired of trying to figure out why. I am learning at this point in my life that a lot depends upon asking the right question(s). Previously I have asked the wrong question(s), such as, "why must it be like this?" and "why am I this way?" Now my question is simply, "what can I do to put an end to this?" and "how can I stop being this way and be some way else?" I hate, hate, HATE posting all this here. Do you have any idea how much I despise it, how much it sickens me that while REAL people are dealing with REAL problems and REAL needs, like sickness and degenerative conditions and injuries and death and pain, here I am spinning my wheels in complete desperation over this stuff that people who don't experience it would just dismiss with a backhanded wave as a lot of nonsense that I need not concern myself with? That's easy to say if you're not experiencing it. (Note, I don't think anyone here is being dismissive toward me; this is just how my mind envisions "people" [in general] to be thinking. It's a projection of self-consciousness as other-consciousness, I guess.) I don't WANT to be experiencing it. I HATE IT. I hate all this insanity or demonic attention or whatever it actually is, in truth (and I don't care so much about the diagnosis so long as it leads to a cure). I want to be connected with reality, have a mind that is sane and works properly to discern truth from error, right from wrong, and reality from fantasy and most of all is connected with God. Oh yes, and has some privacy and boundaries too, like regular people have, instead of feeling that every flaw, failing and shortcoming of my life and being is laid open to every curious eye that passes by. Thanks for putting up with me, letting me express these things. I'm open to any practical solutions, that is, that are of such type that I'm able to implement (e.g., I can't take much exercise right now with the condition my back is in, for example, so rigorous physical activity, regardless of its benefits, is not really a viable option right now). I will continue to pray for others immediately and on the spot when they post requests, because I cannot trust myself to remember to do so later or more eloquently. I'm not doing it to be showy. I'm doing it so they will at least have A prayer from me, even if it's short. It's mainly because I am having such a hard time praying at all, if I don't do it quick at that exact moment, it won't be done. Edited by Nicodema (04/25/05 04:00 PM) _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#36108 - 04/25/05 05:10 PM Re: Deliverance [Re: ]
Gail Google is my friend Registered: 12/10/02 Posts: 12878 Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa	N, as I was reading your last post, something else came to my mind... I'm not sure if you will find this helpful in your situation or not What helps me when my mind is full of thoughts is to think on Jesus- just one aspect of His life. Give your own thoughts a timeout, and focus on Him and lose yourself in that view of Him Sometimes I flip through my Bible, and sometimes I choose something written about Jesus such as the Desire of Ages or Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing. It's different each time. But it helps to take a break and look at a change of scenery When I do this, then a prayer will come to me, a response to the picture of Jesus that I have at the moment Does this make sense? Praying for you _________________________ Gail gail@adventistforum.com And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17
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#36109 - 04/25/05 07:50 PM

Re: Deliverance [Re: ]

Nicodema Offline

Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp

Quote:

Please forgive me for leaving so much room for misunderstanding. No, I did not regard your previous posts as "mere histrionics," but I think you'd probably admit yourself that you have a real flair for histrionics. There's no "mere" about it.

Thank you for leaving no room for misunderstanding, Inga. I regret to inform you that I cannot admit to anything that is not the truth about me, and this is not the truth. It may be your opinion, whether past or present, but it does not constitute a factual representation of my person. I am sorry to hear you held such a belittling and invalidating opinion of me, and I am sorry to find you seem to think it important to encourage me, at this vulnerable time and place in which I find myself, to adopt it as my own. I need you to know that I have no intention of so doing, and that I would prefer it if, in the future, you avoid such a course with me.

That being said, I shall endeavor to respond to the rest of your post as though this unfortunate exchange had not transpired.

Quote:

I can make a suggestion based on my own experience. When I was at my wits' end in my own life and my marriage, I went to God and said, "I give up... I can only throw myself on your mercy, Father. If there's anything in my life that needs changing, please show me!"

I have prayed this and continue to pray this when I feel "at my wits end". So far I am not receiving any concrete answers. I don't believe by any stretch of the imagination this means there is nothing that needs changing in me!! Far from it!!! What concerns me is that it may mean I am regarded as past the point of being able to be changed, which basically spells my doom and causes a massive downward spiral spiritually and emotionally for me. With that going on, as you can imagine, praying becomes rather cyclical for me, bouncing from "show me what needs to change/what I should do" to trying to repent of anything that comes to my mind to feeling my repentance isn't sincere or accepted (because it does not result in experiencing connection with God and freedom from the torment), to asking God to give me repentance, etc. etc. It all tends to run in convoluted loops like that, going nowhere really fast.

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If you can entertain the possibility that there's still something in your life that allows the devil some kind of claim on you, take it to God in the same manner, and ask Him to show you what it is and then ask Him for the strength to give it up, whatever it is ...

If I could be certain of God's voice directing me, and not merely my own superstitions, I would stand on my head and spin like a top while burning books like a Nazi and crusading for the unborn if it meant being free from this torture. But it would have to be God telling me what to do, not superstition, not the voice of fear and "what if" and "maybe". And it would have to be REAL freedom, not "the next time you accidentally have a wrong thought it's all over, no more freedom!" kind of deal (been there, done that, had plenty of those, no thanks no how NO WAY. A "freedom" that I have to manufacture for myself by pretending is hollow and fragile and empty as what I am already experiencing, if not moreso. It either comes from God and is real, permanent, and lasting, or it is not good enough because truly, you cannot begin to understand how important it is for me, as a former occultist, to NOT have to have things subject to MY mind and MY will and MY ability to "hack reality to my own taste". Had enough of that.

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... another very practical suggestion occurs to me. Dickens was very aware of the possibility, as it is mentioned in *A Christmas Carol,* if I remember correctly. When you go to bed and try to sleep with undigested food in your stomach, it can make for an uneasy sleep, and there's no accounting for *what* our mind can do to us when not under our conscious control.

This isn't an issue for me. I generally take my final meal early in the evening, around 5 p.m. If anything my stomach tends to be empty more times than not when I retire.

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the Holy Spirit activating me and bringing me into the mind where I eagerly want to devour scripture and be in prayer like things used to be. Because when I try to go on my own steam I just can't connect at all, it's all empty.

What do you mean by going on your own steam?

Trying to pray or read Scripture because I think to myself, "I should pray (or read Scripture), because that's how I can get closer to God, get to know Him better, that's what I should be doing." On my own steam means basically doing it because I am thinking it is something that should be done, that I should be doing, and trying to, not because the Holy Spirit is active inside me creating the heartfelt yearning for it.

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It's a like any other relationship: We don't always *feel* "in love" or really excited about the relationship, but we do loving and responsible things because we've made a commitment. Feeling often follows action, rather than the other way around.

Does that make any sense to you?

Yes, but at the risk of being infuriating (which I genuinely do not intend to be, only honest), it simply does not apply to this situation. First, it's not a matter of feelings to begin with. I'm not contrasting feeling with action, I'm contrasting the Holy Spirit's activity with my own steam. Second, I'm aware of doing things out of responsibility and commitment -- an example would be rubbing my mate's feet or back when I don't "feel like it" simply because I love him and he needs me to do that to relieve him of pain or discomfort. Or taking time to listen or talk when I'm not in the mood because he needs me to be there for him in that moment. The thing is, I CAN do those things, because the "other" is RIGHT THERE to do them WITH. I don't have to try to imagine him there in his absence. I can't describe perfectly the difference but it's different with God. Because He is invisible I have to have Him present and connecting with me to be able to do those things that are part of that relationship. If He is absent there is no motivation, and even if I try to manufacture that motivation I cannot make myself do it no matter how I try. My mind goes in a zillion directions and I end up tortured or empty when I try to pray. I can't focus or concentrate when I try to read scripture. When the Spirit is active in me I don't have those problems, because it is the Spirit within me reaching to connect with the rest of the Godhead, and fusing me into that connection. We might have to chalk this up to a theological difference between us, Inga, because it's not a feeling vs. commitment issue. It has to do with how I understand the agency of the Holy Spirit based on both study AND personal experience.

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I know that what you describe is the ideal. It's the "first-love" experience. Perhaps now, though, you need to settle into the "working love" -- the kind that works on principle, rather than feeling. (I'm *not* knocking feeling. As I said, I find it *follows* action. I found that even worked in my marriage when the feeling was gone. I started to *do* the loving things again, and my feelings followed. It works that way with God too. Just do hang in there!)

The thing is -- to continue with my comparison above to rubbing my mate's feet or listening to him -- it requires nothing of me but the will to do so to do those things. He is there talking -- so I don't have to try to imagine the voice of someone absent. His feet are right there sore, ready to be relieved, it does not require concentration I do not have to rub them and relieve his discomfort. Prayer and scripture reading both require types of focus and concentration I am not able to produce in myself in order to be fruitful or hey, for that matter, to even just be *continued* for longer than five minutes, fruitful or not! When I can't make sense out of words on the page, I quickly cease reading. When I read the same sentence 50 times and still can't get past it, I cease reading. When I find myself praying empty, repetitive prayers with no relief from the condition causing them to be empty in the first place, I cannot continue. I don't feel a pressing need to TELL God everything on my heart because He already knows. In fact, He knows better than me. And finally ... when I spend time with my mate there isn't some monster dressed like him ready to sneak in there and substitute for him instead, in order to gain access to my mind and torture me through my own thoughts. Again, I don't care if this "monster" is (a) demon(s) or some twisted, messed up thing in my head -- whatever it is, I don't just want it gone, I NEED it gone. Because I'm only a programmable human being like everyone else, and this thing is programming aversion into me faster than Pavlov made his dogs salivate at the sound of a bell.

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Or else I get this big torture session like I described, that's even worse.

I'm convinced that *that* is something the Lord