I am in shock !!!
I will be praying several times a day Nico.

Dear Nico,

I haven't been around ClubAdventist for a while, but checked in yesterday and read a few of your posts, among others. I thought. Nico has changed -- no histrionics, just straight-forward, honest sharing and some really helpful insights. (I know that in the past you often wrote with insight, but I sense something different now.)

And now I saw this thread, and I can see what it is. You recognize something in yourself, and you have made a conscious decision not to go there, not to nurture your pride in your special role in the occult.

I believe that the Holy Spirit *is* active in your life. You've already changed significantly in the last several months, and if you persevere, you *will* again experience the joy of his salvation. (See Psalm 51.)

While I cannot know exactly how you feel, I sense your anguish. Please know that as long as you *want* to serve God, you are not outside the reach of His grace. IOW, you have not committed "the unpardonable sin." His Spirit is still at work in your life.

That feeling of being emotionally and spiritually "dead" can be exhaustion and/or depression. You mention that you are on medications. Even if they are helping you (and apparently they do, according to your sharing), there are natural ways to combat depression, including good nutrition, sunlight, regular exercise, and the sleep that comes after exercise. These ways actually *restore* your body, which results in better emotional, spiritual and mental health as well. (For me, personally, exercise is *extremely* important.)

Remember that Jesus said that we need to become like little children to inherit the Kingdom. We need to have the simplicity and faith of a little child. That's it. And that's all. No fancy prayers or binding of demons or spirits or "leeches," or anything similar. Being saved does not require specialized knowledge. It just requires whole-hearted commitment.

I do not know your life situation, but I do know from experience that very often we do not recognize the deceitfulness of our own hearts and God needs to bring things to our consciousness gradually. You have dealt with your pride in being "special" in Satan's realm. Hold on to the insight you have received and now focus on Christ and His love for you. If something seems to be blocking your connection with Christ, ask Him what it is, knowing it may be something you're still holding on to that you don't want to give up. (Anything but this, Lord, may be your thinking.) We are not Christ's unless we are Christ's fully. I know that if you determine to do nothing that God cannot approve and hold nothing back from Him, you *will* find peace. It may not be the same kind of energy you experienced when you were younger. But it will surely be a settled peace and conviction in your soul that God has forgiven you and accepted you.

I see some practical advice in several of the posts in this thread. The Holy Spirit will reveal to you just what applies to you. I do know that who and what we focus on determines our destination. So please focus on Christ and His Word -- not on His enemy, and you will surely draw closer to Him.

I am praying for you right now, dear Nico.

May you sense the presence of the Holy Spirit with you. And may He give you the humility and patience to persevere in seeking Him even when you do not *feel* what you think you should feel. Trust Him to stay by you during this "dry" time.

In His love,
Inga

PS Nico, I loved your "Prodigal Son" post in the "Modestly Fat" thread. Right on!

I was not aware my previous posts were being regarded as mere histrionics, but I'm glad your perception has changed in that regard anyway, Inga. And I appreciate the things you shared.

What is really upsetting for me is what I encounter when I try to pray sometimes. I don't know if it is God, Satan, or my own sick mind, but whatever it is, it frightens and upsets me terribly. It is something that starts off acting like God but then it changes on me. Now, I know they say Satan can't read our minds so that would mean he can't have "telepathic" (silent) conversations with us imitating God, right? So that means either this twisted creature IS God, talking to me, isolating me, or it is some projection of my own sick mind and I can't shut it off. I guess the latter proposition is less upsetting than the former but it makes it terribly hard to know whether I'm engaging in a season of fruitful self-examination and repentance or some bizarre, esoteric form of self-torture. I wish I could reproduce these "conversations" so I would not be isolated in them, so someone else would see and know what is going on and understand why I find it so frightening and upsetting, maybe even help me sort it out, but it only takes place deep inside me and I can't get it "out" to show it to anyone in terms of the specifics involved.

I was isolated like this in my head and kept up till past 2 a.m. last night unable to sleep. It would shift in and out from being the God I know (or at least the One I believe in) to being this weird, petty, vain, twisted being, and then I would come out of it and it would be God again, or just my own thoughts (my normal thoughts not this other being inside them). This is so hard to describe so as to enable anyone else to understand it that I don't know what to do. I want to be able to sleep without being tormented. If God is really weeding my garden then I want to be open to that because I know even if it hurts during the process there will be peace and freedom in the end, but I get confused when the "gardener" stops acting like the loving Holy Spirit and starts acting like this other bizarre being. (Am I making ANY sense???)

All I know is I want to be able to sleep normally and I want to be able to pray normally and I want to be called to prayer by the Holy Spirit and able to know what to pray and how. And I want to experience (see how well she has learned NOT to use the word "feel" in order to avoid automatic invalidations from the left-brain church) the Holy Spirit activating me and bringing me into the mind where I eagerly want to devour scripture and be in prayer like things used to be. Because when I try to go on my own steam I just can't connect at all, it's all empty. Or else I get this big torture session like I described, that's even worse.

SIGH.

Hang in there my friend, I am praying for you.

Yes, and your prayer in the other thread sounded fine

I would like to second Sid's encouragement and say, Hang in there

Dear Nico,

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I was not aware my previous posts were being regarded as mere histrionics

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Please forgive me for leaving so much room for misunderstanding. No, I did not regard your previous posts as "mere histrionics," but I think you'd probably admit yourself that you have a real flair for histrionics. There's no "mere" about it.

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What is really upsetting for me is what I encounter when I try to pray sometimes. I don't know if it is God, Satan, or my own sick mind, but whatever it is, it frightens and upsets me terribly. It is something that starts off acting like God but then it changes on me. Now, I know they say Satan can't read our minds so that would mean he can't have "telepathic" (silent) conversations with us imitating God, right? So that means either this twisted creature IS God, talking to me, isolating me, or it is some projection of my own sick mind and I can't shut it off. I guess the latter proposition is less upsetting than the former but it makes it terribly hard to know whether I'm engaging in a season of fruitful self-examination and repentance or some bizarre, esoteric form of self-torture. I wish I could reproduce these "conversations" so I would not be isolated in them, so someone else would see and know what is going on and understand why I find it so frightening and upsetting, maybe even help me sort it out, but it only takes place deep inside me and I can't get it "out" to show it to anyone in terms of the specifics involved.

I was isolated like this in my head and kept up till past 2 a.m. last night unable to sleep. It would shift in and out from being the God I know (or at least the One I believe in) to being this weird, petty, vain, twisted being, and then I would come out of it and it would be God again, or just my own thoughts (my normal thoughts not this other being inside them). This is so hard to describe so as to enable anyone else to understand it that I don't know what to do. I want to be able to sleep without being tormented. If God is really weeding my garden then I want to be open to that because I know even if it hurts during the process there will be peace and freedom in the end, but I get confused when the "gardener" stops acting like the loving Holy Spirit and starts acting like this other bizarre being. (Am I making ANY sense???)

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You're making lots of sense, Nico. The only thing I can be sure of at this distance is that what you experience doesn't sound like anything God would do to you. The Holy Spirit does come to convict of sin, among other things, and that leaves you with the conviction that you need to change something. It will always be something you can *do,* with His help, though you may not like to do it. What you describe sounds nothing like that.

You've covered the other options too, and it could be either of the other two. While Satan cannot read your thoughts, I suspect he can guess *very* well. Just like he can bring temptations to our minds, so I'm sure he can insert thoughts/words that interfere with our prayers. I hesitate to make any recommendations here because I have no way of knowing what's actually going on.

I can make a suggestion based on my own experience. When I was at my wits' end in my own life and my marriage, I went to God and said, "I give up... I can only throw myself on your mercy, Father. If there's anything in my life that needs changing, please show me!"

It was as if God answered, "Now *there's* a prayer I can answer!" So He showed me! And it wasn't a pretty picture, because He showed me how utterly self-centered and selfish I was. There was *nothing* in me at all deserving of His grace (and there still isn't) ... And, yes, with time, He showed me some specifics too. If you can entertain the possibility that there's still something in your life that allows the devil some kind of claim on you, take it to God in the same manner, and ask Him to show you what it is and then ask Him for the strength to give it up, whatever it is ...

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All I know is I want to be able to sleep normally

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[This is written *after* the rest of the note... kind of a P.S. but it fit in here.] H'mm ... another very practical suggestion occurs to me. Dickens was very aware of the possibility, as it is mentioned in *A Christmas Carol,* if I remember correctly. When you go to bed and try to sleep with undigested food in your stomach, it can make for an uneasy sleep, and there's no accounting for *what* our mind can do to us when not under our conscious control. Neither God nor the devil needs to have anything to do with it. While we normally do not remember dreams, if we do not sleep soundly, the kind of mental torture you share can happen. [This may not be applicable to your current problem, but it works just as I am sharing here ...]

I know *I* do not sleep well if I eat too close to bed time. While you may not have changed your habits since you were younger, your body may very well have changed on you. If this *does* seem to apply, try to make sure that nothing except water, or possibly some warm milk or herbal "sleepy-time" tea (*no* coffee, soft drinks, or green or black tea) enters your mouth for four hours before bed time.

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and I want to be able to pray normally and I want to be called to prayer by the Holy Spirit and able to know what to pray and how. And I want to experience (see how well she has learned NOT to use the word "feel" in order to avoid automatic invalidations from the left-brain church)

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Yes, many of us tend to be left-brained, and we need to be reminded that a relationship with God is more than intellectual assent. It involves the *whole* being, including our emotions.

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the Holy Spirit activating me and bringing me into the mind where I eagerly want to devour scripture and be in prayer like things used to be. Because when I try to go on my own steam I just can't connect at all, it's all empty.

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What do you mean by going on your own steam?

While a relationship with God involves our emotions, that's not *all* it is. Sometimes I may not "feel" like studying the Bible, but when I make the time and *ask* that He speak to me through it, I find that He does. It's a like any other relationship: We don't always *feel* "in love" or really excited about the relationship, but we do loving and responsible things because we've made a commitment. Feeling often follows action, rather than the other way around.

Does that make any sense to you?

I know that what you describe is the ideal. It's the "first-love" experience. Perhaps now, though, you need to settle into the "working love" -- the kind that works on principle, rather than feeling. (I'm *not* knocking feeling. As I said, I find it *follows* action. I found that even worked in my marriage when the feeling was gone. I started to *do* the loving things again, and my feelings followed. It works that way with God too. Just do hang in there!)

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Or else I get this big torture session like I described, that's even worse.

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I'm convinced that *that* is something the Lord doesn't want you to continue to go through!

I will be praying for you.

In His love,
Inga

Dear, dear Nico,

I just found this thread and have read it all through just now. I'm praying for your peace of mind, and for your strength to withstand this mental intrusion.

My only contribution has to be from what my DH (a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst who was also a deeply spiritual Christian) explained to me about this type of mental disturbance. We saw the movie "A Beautiful Mind," and DH told me that that movie was a perfect portrayal of hallucinations. Sometimes the hallucinations are visual, sometimes auditory, and sometimes only mental. But they are perceived as authentic. Here's where I think your "telepathic conversations with Satan" may be coming from: your chemical imbalance. It's definitely not God who's tormenting you thus; and (as we've been taught), Satan can't read minds [though he's an expert at reading our body language, so he really does understand what we're thinking more than we may realize].

So if you can, with the help of your pdoc and your meds, can you just resolve not to pay any attention to those demons within you -- because, you can remind yourself constantly, they are not real. They truly don't exist. They're a figment of mental wanderings.

I know it's possible to make up one's mind to disregard those things, because John Nash himself was able to do that. DH told me he has studied the John Nash case, and that very few people (Nash is the only one DH knew of) are able to disregard their demons without the help of medication. But Nash did it. He constantly told himself the hallucinations were not real, and he was by sheer exercise of will, able to live above those hallucinations. Then as he got older, the hallucinations became less frequent. [I'm not suggesting you go without your meds--far from it! Only that perhaps this may help, as an ancillary approach, along with your meds.]

I'd be happy to PM you with this info, rather than post it, but I can't access your PM. But there's nothing here to be ashamed of. In fact, I'm constantly amazed at your genius [John Nash too was a mental genius]. So there's plenty there for you to work with, even after you disregard what you know to be false.... just don't give up!

Everybody here admires you. Hugs and Christian love.

Well I can do that -- say short, simple prayers for someone else on the spur of the moment. It's only if I attempt to spend any real quality time with God personally that things go "south" really fast. In two different ways, either the torture I tried to describe or just a complete empty disconnected place where I may as well be alone in an empty room talking to myself. Or worse, because at least if that were the case *I* would be there to listen; there is NO ONE there to listen when that happens.

I went to a seminar about prayer this past weekend (Friday evening and Sabbath) at a local church. It was held by Ron Halverson. One of the things he quoted really spoke to me. It was, "Unbelievers don't pray because they are afraid God will really be there; believers don't pray because they are afraid God will really NOT be there." I fall into the latter category. I try to pray but it's like God just isn't there, isn't real, and I hate coming up against that, so it develops an aversion reaction inside me and makes it harder and harder for me to try to spend time in prayer or to focus on anything at all when I do try to pray.

Then with everything so empty and disconnected, my own attempts to pray just sound ludicrous to myself, so superstitious, so drippy and "religiony" like I'm some backwater uneducated hick in a mountain folk cargo cult. Even the things they tell us we should pray sound like superstition to me, like "pleading the blood of Christ" and "praying the armor of God." (Although I have to say one good thing about such things is they give me something to focus on when I'm trying to pray and my mind is flying off in 13,000 different directions at once. The Psalms are even better in this regard.) I feel like I'm under heavy-duty satanic attack and then even that sounds ridiculous to me, like "histrionics" as Inga put it. And I'm hideously self-conscious about all of this because we live in a world where people automatically attribute deliberation to one's thoughts or emotions. It's like you're supposed to be accountable for what you think and feel, or like what you think and feel is supposed to "define who you are" to others. So if I think about how superstitious this or that sounds, someone is bound to think that I really think that, as in, I really hold that view. When in reality, what is going on is that I have no control over my own mind or where it goes or how it feels or thinks, and it travels in areas I would not necessarily choose, and I have NO CONTROL OVER THAT. So it does NOT mean that I'm secretly sitting here pooh-poohing religion. It means I can't HELP how I feel at times or how things "feel to" me, and that's just one example. I'm NOT accountable for this because it is NOT MY CHOICE and it is NOT MY FAULT. It's just what goes on that I'm forced to endure and I don't know why. I'm tired of trying to figure out why.

I am learning at this point in my life that a lot depends upon asking the right question(s). Previously I have asked the wrong question(s), such as, "why must it be like this?" and "why am I this way?" Now my question is simply, "what can I do to put an end to this?" and "how can I stop being this way and be some way else?" I hate, hate, HATE posting all this here. Do you have any idea how much I despise it, how much it sickens me that while REAL people are dealing with REAL problems and REAL needs, like sickness and degenerative conditions and injuries and death and pain, here I am spinning my wheels in complete desperation over this stuff that people who don't experience it would just dismiss with a backhanded wave as a lot of nonsense that I need not concern myself with? That's easy to say if you're not experiencing it. (Note, I don't think anyone here is being dismissive toward me; this is just how my mind envisions "people" [in general] to be thinking. It's a projection of self-consciousness as other-consciousness, I guess.) I don't WANT to be experiencing it. I *HATE* IT. I hate all this insanity or demonic attention or whatever it actually is, in truth (and I don't care so much about the diagnosis so long as it leads to a cure). I want to be connected with reality, have a mind that is sane and works properly to discern truth from error, right from wrong, and reality from fantasy and most of all is connected with God. Oh yes, and has some privacy and boundaries too, like regular people have, instead of feeling that every flaw, failing and shortcoming of my life and being is laid open to every curious eye that passes by.

Thanks for putting up with me, letting me express these things. I'm open to any practical solutions, that is, that are of such type that I'm able to implement (e.g., I can't take much exercise right now with the condition my back is in, for example, so rigorous physical activity, regardless of its benefits, is not really a viable option right now).

I will continue to pray for others immediately and on the spot when they post requests, because I cannot trust myself to remember to do so later or more eloquently. I'm not doing it to be showy. I'm doing it so they will at least have A prayer from me, even if it's short. It's mainly because I am having such a hard time praying at all, if I don't do it quick at that exact moment, it won't be done.

N, as I was reading your last post, something else came to my mind... I'm not sure if you will find this helpful in your situation or not

What helps me when my mind is full of thoughts is to think on Jesus- just one aspect of His life. Give your own thoughts a timeout, and focus on Him and lose yourself in that view of Him

Sometimes I flip through my Bible, and sometimes I choose something written about Jesus such as the Desire of Ages or Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing. It's different each time. But it helps to take a break and look at a change of scenery

When I do this, then a prayer will come to me, a response to the picture of Jesus that I have at the moment

Does this make sense?

Praying for you