Did Jesus die the 2nd death? - unOFFICIAL ADVENTIST FORUM

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#39285 - 05/15/05 09:27 AM Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
yongttay Registered: 05/14/05 Posts: 119 Loc: Washington, USA	Many Adventists believe that Jesus died the 2nd death. How did Jesus came back to life when there is no resurrections for those who die the 2nd death? Can anyone help me with answers. Thanks, Yongttay
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#39286 - 05/15/05 11:34 AM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: ]
wicklunds Registered: 01/30/05 Posts: 993 Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...	Quote: Many Adventists believe that Jesus died the 2nd death. How did Jesus came back to life when there is no resurrections for those who die the 2nd death? Can anyone help me with answers. Thanks, Yongttay Because He is God!! With man this is impossible, with God how many things are possible?? It doesnt make sense to the human mind, but this is why Jesus is an adequate atonement for those that believe!! Believe the unbelievable!!! You will not find a literal explanation in scripture (literally saying that when Jesus died, He died the second death), only that Jesus is the great trump card for sinners who must face death because of disobedience through His resurrection from the second (eternal) death. For sin requires that the sinner die the second death, and thus be as though he had not ever been. Thus it is implied that Christ had to have died the second death in order to be an adequate atonement for sinners. The second death is the lasting and eternal death, the first death is something we must all face. If Christ only died the first death, our faith is in vain; eat, drink, for tomorrow we die forever. Therefore if we believe that Christ, when He was resurrected, saved also them that believe through faith, then the second death has no power over us. Remember that this question is key to realizing the reality and miracle of the atonement. Here are some texts referring to the second death: Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death And Paul says such (ie: cowardly, unbelieving, abominable and murderers, etc...) were some of you...(1 Cor 6:9&10). Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, Remember this text always friend: --> Rev 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, Rev 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. . Without realizing that it is Jesus that is in charge of who sees heaven and hell because He has been given the power over it by God the Father. All authority has been given to Him in heaven and earth. Rest assured that His death could not have been worth anything unless it was the second death. He died in that death in place of all those who would believe and have faith and keep His commandments. I hope this helps. Dennis Wicklund _________________________ It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#39287 - 05/15/05 01:20 PM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: ]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 14161 Loc: Columbia, SC	Quote: He died...that death in place of all those who would believe and have faith and keep His commandments. I hope this helps. First of all Christ didn't die just for those who believe and keep His commandments. That is a lie. He died for "all men"....In fact all men died "in Him": 2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died So "all men" have been justified unto life "in Christ Jesus": Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. In Christ all men (the human race) has been legally saved! How so...how did Christ die the 2nd death? The fact Christ rose from the dead, predicted His resurrection, and claimed that He could lay down His life and than take it up again, is a stumbling block to many in accepting the idea that Christ actually experienced the second death on the cross. It is only when we realize the self-emptying of Christ at the incarnation and its implications that we can grasp the true sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The following is a brief outline of how Christ totally gave Himself up for our redemption: Phil.2:6-8 At the incarnation Jesus totally gave up His divine prerogatives i.e., the independent use of His divinity. By His own choice, He became a slave to the Father. This meant, as a man, He was completely God dependent and had to live by faith alone, just as we do [Jn. 5:19,30; 6:57; 8:28; 14:10]. Rom. 6:4 Christ was also totally God dependent for His resurrection and the New Testament clearly teaches that He was raised up by the glorious power of the Father [Acts 2:24,32; Eph. 1:20]. Matt. 27:46 On the cross Christ actually felt forsaken by the Father. This meant that the hope of being raised by the Father was taken away from Him. He was now treading the winepress alone, experiencing the full cup of the wrath of God against sin, i.e., God abandonment, the curse of the law [Matt. 26:38-42; Rom. 8:32; Gal. 3:13]. Lk. 23:35-39 Satan was fully aware of this. Taking advantage of the terrible mental anguish this second death experience Christ was undergoing, the devil tempted Him three times to give up His faith in the Father, grab hold of His divine power, and independently come down from the cross and save Himself. Jn. 19:30 Confronted by these fierce temptations, that no man will fully understand, Christ had to make a choice: “Shall I come down from the cross and save myself or shall I surrender to this second death, goodbye to life forever, so that the world may be saved?” His choice was: “Not my will, but thine, be done.” By submitting to the full wages of sin, Christ demonstrated that He loves us more than Himself [Rom. 5:8; Jn: 15:13; 1 Jn. 3:16; Rev. 1:5]. Mk. 15:43-45 Pilate marvelled at such an early death because it was not normal for the crucified one to die so soon. But it was this curse of the law that Christ experienced on our behalf that actually killed Him within six hours of His crucifixion. The soldiers that watched Christ die were equally surprised and had to make sure He was dead by piercing His side [Jn. 19: 31-34]. Isa. 53:11,12 It is this supreme sacrifice that satisfied a just and holy God and lawfully saved mankind from the curse of the law. Hence, all who receive Christ and Him crucified by faith will never have to experience the second death [2 Cor. 5:18-21; 2 Tim. 1:7-10; Rev. 20:6]. 2 Cor. 5:14,15 This self-emptying agape love of Christ, manifested on the cross, is what transformed the disciples from a bunch of greedy self-seeking individuals to men of God who were now willing to totally deny self and turn the world upside down with the good news of salvation. The same truth must transform us so that we feel compelled to live and die for Christ [Eph. 5:2]. Questions? _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39288 - 05/15/05 03:50 PM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
wicklunds Registered: 01/30/05 Posts: 993 Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...	no questions...just disagree... _________________________ It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#39289 - 05/15/05 05:36 PM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 14161 Loc: Columbia, SC	Phil.2:6-8 At the incarnation Jesus totally gave up His divine prerogatives i.e., the independent use of His divinity. By His own choice, He became a slave to the Father. This meant, as a man, He was completely God dependent and had to live by faith alone, just as we do [Jn. 5:19,30; 6:57; 8:28; 14:10]. We need to get this down: Phil 2: ...Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Christ as God gave up the independent use of His divinity and was made "in the likeness of men". John 5:19 ...the Son can do nothing of himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing....30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative." 6:57...I live because of the Father....8:28 I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me....14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me... On the cross God the Father abandoned Christ as man....Since Christ fully depended on His Father for everything, when God abandoned Him, Christ's hope the resurrection also left.... _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39290 - 05/15/05 05:45 PM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
wicklunds Registered: 01/30/05 Posts: 993 Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...	ok understood, but what does this have to do with the man's question?? _________________________ It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#39291 - 05/15/05 06:10 PM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
Nicodema Registered: 11/22/03 Posts: 777 Loc: Beyond your grasp	Quote: 2 Cor. 5:14,15 This self-emptying agape love of Christ, manifested on the cross, is what transformed the disciples from a bunch of greedy self-seeking individuals to men of God who were now willing to totally deny self and turn the world upside down with the good news of salvation. The same truth must transform us so that we feel compelled to live and die for Christ [Eph. 5:2]. Questions? Yes, I have a question. You said "The same truth must transform us so that we feel compelled to live and die for Christ." I would like to know, how do I experience that transformation? I want to be transformed like that. Beyond praying and asking God for such a transformation, what can I do on my end to facilitate that transformation? I have already discovered that it cannot be faked or make-believed, so trying to simply act as if it has happened does not work. I want it to be for real, lasting and permanent. How do I get that? _________________________ "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#39292 - 05/15/05 06:19 PM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 14161 Loc: Columbia, SC	Quote: On the cross God the Father abandoned Christ as man....Since Christ fully depended on His Father for everything, when God abandoned Him, Christ's hope the resurrection also left.... What does "Christ as man" mean? Well first let's look at Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He [Christ as God] came into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, But a body Thou hast prepared for Me [i.e., Christ as God]....7 “Then I [Christ as man] said, ‘Behold, I have come...to do Thy will, O God.’” Please note that Christ pre-exited as God. To save mankind God the Father "prepared" a body (a human life) for Christ as God to dwell in.... We can see this elsewhere: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.... Then something happened: 14 And the Word [Jesus as God] became flesh, and tabernacled in us.... Remember that Jesus as God never ceased to exist....He remained fully God. Yet to meet us fully where we are at He had to relinquish His divine prerogatives into His Father's hand....Hence He could say, "I can do nothing on my own"....He completely depended on the Father for everything...especially the resurrection. At this time we have to face an issue....God's law condemns the sinner. Christ's deity is sinless...it is immortal. The law doesn't excuse sin....It demands that the sinner die eternally! That's the 2nd death. For God to legally maintain integrity to His law that justly condemns us, God had to put our fallen, humanity into Christ. How did He do this? By uniting our fallen, sinful human life from the womb of Mary to Christ sinless, divine life. Since Christ gave up His divine prerogatives, Christ was now fully in humanity's shoes.... Since the law requires perfect obedience to God's law...Christ, by faith, fully walked in the Spirit and never (even by a thought) sinned. However, because the humanity He assumed was sinful and under the curse, God had to abandon our humanity "in Christ" to the wages of sin (i.e., the 2nd death). The question is did God raise our fallen humanity that was residing "in Christ" early Sunday morning? NO! If He did then our humanity didn't take the full curse of the law. So God left our sinful humanity in the grave.... In exchange Christ as God was raised with a sinless, immortal humanity. So now Christ is both God and glorified mankind. That's why Paul could say, God "made us [spiritually] alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places... Eph 2:5,6 Now do you have any questions? _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39293 - 05/15/05 06:33 PM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: ]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 14161 Loc: Columbia, SC	Maybe I should have said, "will transform us"? However, this is only true if we fully restore the gospel....If we don't, well..we are not lost...but we will live many, many more years in this rat maze.... How are we transformed? I think that is your question.... First and foremost remember that "in Christ" you already stand fully qualified now and in the judgment....What Christ does in you is used as a witness to draw others to His love....Since Christ is in heaven He must use His people...the Christian church...as a witness How is this done? 1] We need to understand the gospel...the "in Christ" truth 2] In it we will see Christ's self-emptying love...a love that was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that His enemies (those who hated him) could have heaven in His place. 3] As we concentrate on Christ's life (especially the cross) we begin to change....Concentrating on the law will get you nowhere... I think 2 Cor 2:17,18 (RSV) sums it up nicely: 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord [His love see Ex 33:18], are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. Edited by Robert (05/15/05 06:39 PM) _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39294 - 05/16/05 02:33 AM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
Parade Orange Registered: 01/15/05 Posts: 1099 Loc: hopefully in Church and not on...	Now we are talking!!!!! amen I love this thread This warms my heart towards my GOD This is so lofty Praise GOD _________________________ All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD "there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25 That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness.
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