#39285 - 05/15/05 09:27 AM
Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
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Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Washington, USA
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Many Adventists believe that Jesus died the 2nd death. How did Jesus came back to life when there is no resurrections for those who die the 2nd death? Can anyone help me with answers.
Thanks,
Yongttay
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#39286 - 05/15/05 11:34 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 993
Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...
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Quote:
Many Adventists believe that Jesus died the 2nd death. How did Jesus came back to life when there is no resurrections for those who die the 2nd death? Can anyone help me with answers.
Thanks,
Yongttay
Because He is God!! With man this is impossible, with God how many things are possible?? It doesnt make sense to the human mind, but this is why Jesus is an adequate atonement for those that believe!! Believe the unbelievable!!! You will not find a literal explanation in scripture (literally saying that when Jesus died, He died the second death), only that Jesus is the great trump card for sinners who must face death because of disobedience through His resurrection from the second (eternal) death.
For sin requires that the sinner die the second death, and thus be as though he had not ever been. Thus it is implied that Christ had to have died the second death in order to be an adequate atonement for sinners. The second death is the lasting and eternal death, the first death is something we must all face. If Christ only died the first death, our faith is in vain; eat, drink, for tomorrow we die forever. Therefore if we believe that Christ, when He was resurrected, saved also them that believe through faith, then the second death has no power over us.
Remember that this question is key to realizing the reality and miracle of the atonement. Here are some texts referring to the second death:
Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death And Paul says such (ie: cowardly, unbelieving, abominable and murderers, etc...) were some of you...(1 Cor 6:9&10).
Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Remember this text always friend:
--> Rev 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. .
Without realizing that it is Jesus that is in charge of who sees heaven and hell because He has been given the power over it by God the Father. All authority has been given to Him in heaven and earth. Rest assured that His death could not have been worth anything unless it was the second death. He died in that death in place of all those who would believe and have faith and keep His commandments. I hope this helps.
Dennis Wicklund
_________________________
It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#39287 - 05/15/05 01:20 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
He died...that death in place of all those who would believe and have faith and keep His commandments. I hope this helps.
First of all Christ didn't die just for those who believe and keep His commandments. That is a lie. He died for "all men"....In fact all men died "in Him":
2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died
So "all men" have been justified unto life "in Christ Jesus":
Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
In Christ all men (the human race) has been legally saved! How so...how did Christ die the 2nd death?
The fact Christ rose from the dead, predicted His resurrection, and claimed that He could lay down His life and than take it up again, is a stumbling block to many in accepting the idea that Christ actually experienced the second death on the cross.
It is only when we realize the self-emptying of Christ at the incarnation and its implications that we can grasp the true sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The following is a brief outline of how Christ totally gave Himself up for our redemption:
Phil.2:6-8 At the incarnation Jesus totally gave up His divine prerogatives i.e., the independent use of His divinity. By His own choice, He became a slave to the Father. This meant, as a man, He was completely God dependent and had to live by faith alone, just as we do [Jn. 5:19,30; 6:57; 8:28; 14:10].
Rom. 6:4 Christ was also totally God dependent for His resurrection and the New Testament clearly teaches that He was raised up by the glorious power of the Father [Acts 2:24,32; Eph. 1:20].
Matt. 27:46 On the cross Christ actually felt forsaken by the Father. This meant that the hope of being raised by the Father was taken away from Him. He was now treading the winepress alone, experiencing the full cup of the wrath of God against sin, i.e., God abandonment, the curse of the law [Matt. 26:38-42; Rom. 8:32; Gal. 3:13].
Lk. 23:35-39 Satan was fully aware of this. Taking advantage of the terrible mental anguish this second death experience Christ was undergoing, the devil tempted Him three times to give up His faith in the Father, grab hold of His divine power, and independently come down from the cross and save Himself.
Jn. 19:30 Confronted by these fierce temptations, that no man will fully understand, Christ had to make a choice: “Shall I come down from the cross and save myself or shall I surrender to this second death, goodbye to life forever, so that the world may be saved?” His choice was: “Not my will, but thine, be done.” By submitting to the full wages of sin, Christ demonstrated that He loves us more than Himself [Rom. 5:8; Jn: 15:13; 1 Jn. 3:16; Rev. 1:5].
Mk. 15:43-45 Pilate marvelled at such an early death because it was not normal for the crucified one to die so soon. But it was this curse of the law that Christ experienced on our behalf that actually killed Him within six hours of His crucifixion. The soldiers that watched Christ die were equally surprised and had to make sure He was dead by piercing His side [Jn. 19: 31-34].
Isa. 53:11,12 It is this supreme sacrifice that satisfied a just and holy God and lawfully saved mankind from the curse of the law. Hence, all who receive Christ and Him crucified by faith will never have to experience the second death [2 Cor. 5:18-21; 2 Tim. 1:7-10; Rev. 20:6].
2 Cor. 5:14,15 This self-emptying agape love of Christ, manifested on the cross, is what transformed the disciples from a bunch of greedy self-seeking individuals to men of God who were now willing to totally deny self and turn the world upside down with the good news of salvation. The same truth must transform us so that we feel compelled to live and die for Christ [Eph. 5:2].
Questions?
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39288 - 05/15/05 03:50 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 993
Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...
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no questions...just disagree...
_________________________
It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#39289 - 05/15/05 05:36 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Phil.2:6-8 At the incarnation Jesus totally gave up His divine prerogatives i.e., the independent use of His divinity. By His own choice, He became a slave to the Father. This meant, as a man, He was completely God dependent and had to live by faith alone, just as we do [Jn. 5:19,30; 6:57; 8:28; 14:10]. We need to get this down: Phil 2: ...Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Christ as God gave up the independent use of His divinity and was made "in the likeness of men". John 5:19 ...the Son can do nothing of himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing....30 “ I can do nothing on My own initiative." 6:57...I live because of the Father....8:28 I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me....14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me... On the cross God the Father abandoned Christ as man....Since Christ fully depended on His Father for everything, when God abandoned Him, Christ's hope the resurrection also left....
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39290 - 05/15/05 05:45 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 993
Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...
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ok understood, but what does this have to do with the man's question??
_________________________
It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#39292 - 05/15/05 06:19 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
On the cross God the Father abandoned Christ as man....Since Christ fully depended on His Father for everything, when God abandoned Him, Christ's hope the resurrection also left....
What does "Christ as man" mean? Well first let's look at Hebrews 10:5
Therefore, when He [Christ as God] came into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, But a body Thou hast prepared for Me [i.e., Christ as God]....7 “Then I [Christ as man] said, ‘Behold, I have come...to do Thy will, O God.’”
Please note that Christ pre-exited as God. To save mankind God the Father "prepared" a body (a human life) for Christ as God to dwell in....
We can see this elsewhere:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being....
Then something happened:
14 And the Word [Jesus as God] became flesh, and tabernacled in us....
Remember that Jesus as God never ceased to exist....He remained fully God. Yet to meet us fully where we are at He had to relinquish His divine prerogatives into His Father's hand....Hence He could say, "I can do nothing on my own"....He completely depended on the Father for everything...especially the resurrection.
At this time we have to face an issue....God's law condemns the sinner. Christ's deity is sinless...it is immortal.
The law doesn't excuse sin....It demands that the sinner die eternally! That's the 2nd death. For God to legally maintain integrity to His law that justly condemns us, God had to put our fallen, humanity into Christ. How did He do this?
By uniting our fallen, sinful human life from the womb of Mary to Christ sinless, divine life. Since Christ gave up His divine prerogatives, Christ was now fully in humanity's shoes....
Since the law requires perfect obedience to God's law...Christ, by faith, fully walked in the Spirit and never (even by a thought) sinned.
However, because the humanity He assumed was sinful and under the curse, God had to abandon our humanity "in Christ" to the wages of sin (i.e., the 2nd death).
The question is did God raise our fallen humanity that was residing "in Christ" early Sunday morning? NO! If He did then our humanity didn't take the full curse of the law. So God left our sinful humanity in the grave....
In exchange Christ as God was raised with a sinless, immortal humanity. So now Christ is both God and glorified mankind.
That's why Paul could say, God "made us [spiritually] alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places... Eph 2:5,6
Now do you have any questions?
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39293 - 05/15/05 06:33 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Maybe I should have said, "will transform us"? However, this is only true if we fully restore the gospel....If we don't, well..we are not lost...but we will live many, many more years in this rat maze.... How are we transformed? I think that is your question.... First and foremost remember that "in Christ" you already stand fully qualified now and in the judgment....What Christ does in you is used as a witness to draw others to His love....Since Christ is in heaven He must use His people...the Christian church...as a witness How is this done? 1] We need to understand the gospel...the "in Christ" truth 2] In it we will see Christ's self-emptying love...a love that was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that His enemies (those who hated him) could have heaven in His place. 3] As we concentrate on Christ's life (especially the cross) we begin to change....Concentrating on the law will get you nowhere... I think 2 Cor 2:17,18 (RSV) sums it up nicely: 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord [His love see Ex 33:18], are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
Edited by Robert (05/15/05 06:39 PM)
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39294 - 05/16/05 02:33 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1117
Loc: hopefully in Church and not on...
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Now we are talking!!!!!
amen
I love this thread
This warms my heart towards my GOD
This is so lofty
Praise GOD
_________________________
All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD
"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25
That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness.
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#39295 - 05/16/05 02:34 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 3981
Loc: Western United States
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Quote:
How did Jesus came back to life when there is no resurrections for those who die the 2nd death?
Thanks,
Yongttay
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9 KJV
It is important for you to build your own foundational faith between you and your Father in heaven, Yongttay, without any human other than Jesus interfering with settled conclusions on your part. That is not to say other members of the body of Christ cannot be helpful to you as they relate their own experience in the leading of the Holy Spirit, through the Divine Word, the Holy Scriptures. It just means that whenever the seed of the Word is sown in your heart, it will only be understood correctly through the discernment given by the Holy Spirit.
" But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father" John 16:13 AMP
"Oh, there is so much more I want to tell you, but you can't bear it now." John 16:12 NLT
Since all men are falling short of the glory of God, that which we might give to you will not only be subject to the frailties of the individual giving it, but at our finest hour it will still only be partial in its' truth.
"For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." 1 Cor 13:9,10 NKJV
I have found that if I strive to follow that with which I know to be true, the Holy Spirit continues to open new vistas of knowledge as I or others would benefit from it, along with the fruit of the Spirit, to His honor and glory.
"But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,
Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge]." Galatians 5:22,23 AMP
Keep looking up!
Edited by LifeHiscost (05/16/05 02:42 AM)
_________________________
Lift Jesus up!!
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#39296 - 05/16/05 02:42 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1117
Loc: hopefully in Church and not on...
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I heard from a wonderful minister that when you look at the story of Abraham and Issac you see God directed Abraham to Kill His own son.
God didnt direct for Abraham to Watch as His own son to die but for father to do it himself.
GOD Himself Took JESUS Life on the cross. That was worse than watching HIM die.
God Himself Poured out wrath on HIM for us.
This is what the minister demostrated to me through Abraham and Issac.
Many here will not agree with this profound mystery. Thats ok
I still cant wrap my brain around it but God works in me through such lofty revelations. It subdues me and warms my heart towards such a GOD Family such as this.
_________________________
All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD
"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25
That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness.
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#39297 - 05/16/05 02:43 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 993
Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...
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Again Robert,
This does not answer the man's question at all. You seem to be rambling about non-relative details.
_________________________
It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#39298 - 05/16/05 02:44 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1117
Loc: hopefully in Church and not on...
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and beleive me Im not worthy of any of these scenios that the posters have posted
_________________________
All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD
"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25
That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness.
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#39299 - 05/16/05 02:47 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1117
Loc: hopefully in Church and not on...
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Wicklands Hello,
I hope u dont mind me saying this....
We are required to answer the mans question?
Cant we just share our thoughts?
God bless you
_________________________
All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD
"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25
That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness.
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#39301 - 05/16/05 03:35 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
Again Robert,
This does not answer the man's question at all. You seem to be rambling about non-relative details.
Let's see...Here's his question:
"How did Jesus come back to life when there is no resurrection for those who die the 2nd death?"
I answered it....In fact I proved that our fallen humanity, which God placed "in Christ", wasn't resurrected! That sinful life died eternally....At the resurrection Christ as God took a glorified humanity to heaven, free of sin and mortality.
Ellen White sheds some light here:
BC- 5BC
TI- S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5
CN- MAR2
CT- Mark
PR- 04
PG- 1113
When the voice of the angel was heard saying, “Thy Father calls thee,” He who had said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again,” “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity did not die. Humanity died….
Please note the pre-existing Christ (as God) didn't die....That life lay dorment....What died eternally was our old sinful life from Adam....
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39302 - 05/16/05 08:25 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Washington, USA
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Quote:
"Please note the pre-existing Christ (as God) didn't die....That life lay dorment....What died eternally was our old sinful life from Adam.... "
The above quotation gives me the impressions that Christ did not really die. That at the incarnation, Christ simply put on the fallen human flesh clothing which He had been wearing for 33 1/2 years. At the cross, He simply got rid off the fallen human flesh clothing. Meaning that the fallen human flesh clothing was the one that died the second death - eternal death, and as God, Christ did not die and that's why He came back to life. Did I understand you?
Yongttay
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#39303 - 05/16/05 12:35 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
THE ABOVE QUOTATION GIVES ME THE IMPRESSIONS THAT CHRIST DID NOT REALLY DIE.
AS GOD...CHRIST DIDN'T DIE. WHY? FOR ONE HE NOT THE SINNER...WE ARE! THE LAW DEMANDS THAT THE SINNER DIES...NOT A SINLESS BEING. SUBSTITUTION DOESN'T LEGALLY ANSWER GOD'S LAW....AFTER ALL GOD'S LAW STATES,
“THE PERSON WHO SINS WILL DIE [I.E., THE 2ND DEATH]. THE SON WILL NOT BEAR THE PUNISHMENT FOR THE FATHER’S INIQUITY, NOR WILL THE FATHER BEAR THE PUNISHMENT FOR THE SON’S INIQUITY; THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE RIGHTEOUS WILL BE UPON HIMSELF, AND THE WICKEDNESS OF THE WICKED WILL BE UPON HIMSELF. EZ 18:20
Quote:
AT THE INCARNATION, CHRIST SIMPLY PUT ON THE FALLEN HUMAN FLESH CLOTHING WHICH HE HAD BEEN WEARING FOR 33 1/2 YEARS.
NO, HE DIDN'T WEAR IT....WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT LIVES IN THE BELIEVER, DOES HE WEAR THE BELIEVER? NO...THE BIBLE STATES THAT HE RESIDES IN BELIEVER....
WHAT CHRIST AS GOD DID WAS TO BLEND OUR FALLEN HUMANITY WITH HIS DIVINE LIFE. THAT HUMANITY BELONGS TO YOU AND ME....IT IS WHAT DIED! THAT'S WHY PAUL CAN SAY,
...OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED WITH HIM....[ROM 6:6] YOU DIED TO THE LAW [IT DEMANDED YOUR DEATH...WHERE?] [ROM 7:4] IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.
THIS IS NEW STUFF, HUH? WELL IT IS THE GOSPEL....TO UNDERSTAND HOW YOU COULD DIE "IN CHRIST" AND YET BE TALKING TO ME NOW, WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND OUR SITUATION "IN ADAM"....ARE YOU GAME?
ROB
PS: Sorry about the caps...
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39304 - 05/16/05 02:28 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 993
Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...
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Sorry, Robert, but yongtay's characterization sounds exactly like my impressions after reading your dissertations. You need to try to ween yourself off of TOTALLY relying on Paul's version of events. Some is good, but there are other places that need looking at.
_________________________
It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#39305 - 05/16/05 09:25 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Washington, USA
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Quote:
"NO, HE DIDN'T WEAR IT....WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT LIVES IN THE BELIEVER, DOES HE WEAR THE BELIEVER? NO...THE BIBLE STATES THAT HE RESIDES IN BELIEVER....
WHAT CHRIST AS GOD DID WAS TO BLEND OUR FALLEN HUMANITY WITH HIS DIVINE LIFE. THAT HUMANITY BELONGS TO YOU AND ME....IT IS WHAT DIED! THAT'S WHY PAUL CAN SAY,
...OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED WITH HIM....[ROM 6:6] YOU DIED TO THE LAW [IT DEMANDED YOUR DEATH...WHERE?] [ROM 7:4] IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. "
Are you saying that the body of Christ is the part that died the second death at the cross, and that Christ's person or entity did not really died because He is God.
Yongttay
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#39307 - 05/17/05 01:06 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
Are you saying that the body of Christ is the part that died the second death at the cross, and that Christ's person or entity did not really died because He is God.
Yongttay
No...
Let's go back to the beginning of time...i.e., creation.
When God made Adam He was not just creating a man...He (God) was creating "all men" in one man. Let's examine this truth:
Acts 17:26 "He [God] made from one [Adam], every nation of mankind...."
Ps 139:13 For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother’s womb....
Okay...we all know we come from mom, but when did God create you? You have two answers:
1] When you were conceived, or
2] When He made Adam.
Well...if we continue on to verse 15 of Psalms chapter 139, we must pick # 2....Let's continue:
15 My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought [in my mother's womb? No!] in the depths of the earth. 16 Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
From where was Adam created? Gen 2:7 says from the earth - "from the dust of the ground". So God created David [the author of Psalms] when He created Adam. Even Eve came from Adam's side [see Gen 2:22,23]....Thus Paul could state,
For man [mankind] does not originate from woman, but woman from man....[1 Corinthians 11:8]
Now if you say that God created you at conception (#2) then we can blame God for creating you a sinner [see Ps 51:5]. Of course that is blasphemy for God is not the author of sin.
Do you buy that you came from Adam...that you are his cells Xeroxed a trillion times over? Until we get this down we can't understand how Christ (as man) could die the 2nd death.
Rob
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39308 - 05/17/05 09:16 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Washington, USA
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Quote:
"Do you buy that you came from Adam...that you are his cells Xeroxed a trillion times over? Until we get this down we can't understand how Christ (as man) could die the 2nd death."
I certainly agree with you that I came from Adam and that I am
his cells Xeroxed a trillion times over. Like most adventists, I believe Jesus died the 2nd death and at this point of time He is the only one that had tasted that eternal death.
My question was: How did He came back to life. Remember Jesus was ONE PERSON with two natures (divine and human) and not with two lives. How could you say that His humanity died but His divinity did not died unless you believe as non-sda christians do that when a man died, his soul continue living in heaven/hell.
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#39309 - 05/17/05 12:09 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
How did He come back to life. Remember Jesus was ONE PERSON with two natures (divine and human) and not with two lives. How could you say that His humanity died but His divinity did not died unless you believe as non-sda christians do that when a man died, his soul continue living in heaven/hell.
Jesus didn't come to save our natures....Jesus came to save us from the curse of the law...the 2nd death. To legally and lawfully save us from God's law that justly condemns us, Jesus (at the incarnation) had to assume "us"....Not our body, not our nature, but the whole fallen, man.
Since we all share Adam's life, all Christ needed to do was assume that life. And He did at the incarnation. At the cross Deity did not sink and die, humanity died eternally....Sunday morning Christ was raised with a glorified humanity. Our old life stayed in the grave.
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39310 - 05/18/05 02:15 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Washington, USA
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"Jesus didn't come to save our natures....Jesus came to save us from the curse of the law...the 2nd death."
This is a very true statement and I don't dispute it. Jesus didn't come to save our natures, He came to save us from our sinful fallen human natures, He came to destroy them so that He can replace in us with His perfect sinless human natures which He lived for 33 1/2 years on earth.
"Jesus (at the incarnation) had to assume "us"....Not our body, not our nature, but the whole fallen, man."
Exactly. He became the whole fallen sinful man. When He died on the cross, His whole person or entity died the 2nd death. How did He came back to life when there is no resurrection for those who die the 2nd death. So far my question has not been answered yet.
Thanks,
Yongttay
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#39311 - 05/18/05 02:48 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 993
Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...
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#39312 - 05/18/05 02:53 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 08/16/00
Posts: 178
Loc: clarkston, wa, usa
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Quote:
Many Adventists believe that Jesus died the 2nd death. How did Jesus came back to life when there is no resurrections for those who die the 2nd death? Can anyone help me with answers.
Thanks,
Yongttay
What you have witnessed here is the complete failure to answer your question. The reason is that to answer your question they must redefine the 2nd death. Scripture says there is no resurrection from the 2nd death the SDA tradition says Jesus not only died the 2nd death but was resurrected from it. The requirement for the 2nd death is to have died once previously, and be supernaturally raised for the judgment. Again Jesus did not die twice.
And lastly for those who say Jesus suffered the wrath of God. There is not one New Testament verse that says Jesus suffered the wrath of God or anything like that. The Bible is very clear that men killed Jesus, the book of Acts states this 5 times. Again the 2nd death is not caused by man since the 2nd life is a supernatural event whereby man is raised from death to stand in the judgment.
So the simple answer to your question is no Jesus never died the 2nd death. when the Bible talks about the result of sin being death it is not referring to the second death. Because were it not for the supernatural gift of God in life after death, death would be the end forever. God raises at the judgment some to life and some to everlasting destruction. It is those who have rejected God and stand at the judgment as rejectors of God that will suffer the 2nd death, the cessation of the supernatural life that they were temporarily granted to see their life in respect to the God that they have rejected.
Hope that helps. It is important to remember that the only place in the Bible that talks about the 2nd death is in the book of Revelation and it does so exclusively in the terms of resurrected life as part of the judgment scenero. Being a highly symbolic book too much speculation on the judgment scenes may not always be helpful as our expectations of the future are often colored by thoughts that may not be appliable.
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#39313 - 05/18/05 03:44 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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The Troubadours Love
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 1711
Loc: Georgia, USA
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Quote:
I think 2 Cor 2:17,18 (RSV) sums it up nicely:
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord [His love see Ex 33:18], are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
Hi Robert, I love reading your posts, for it is truth, and is such a blessing! I am learning so much by reading them! Thanks so much for telling the good news of the gospel. I am trying to find this verse you quoted as 2 Cor 2:17, 18. I looked it up there, but didn't find it there, can you tell me where I can find it? I really liked that verse, as I do so many others! lol Thanks, God Bless. Denise :-)
_________________________
Be Kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another...  Eatonton Georgia  
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#39314 - 05/18/05 04:19 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 993
Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...
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Quote:
First of all Christ didn't die just for those who believe and keep His commandments. That is a lie. He died for "all men"....In fact all men died "in Him":
mmmm He might have died in order that all men might have the choice to choose life, but this says something altogether different...
Mat 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Christ, the omniscient, knew not all people would choose to obey and follow His leading people!!! Don't let overzealous
Pauline gospelizers interpret the scriptures for you.
_________________________
It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#39315 - 05/19/05 12:16 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
How did He came back to life when there is no resurrection for those who die the 2nd death. So far my question has not been answered yet.
I answered that question.... Christ’s divinity did not die...our sinful life from Adam died eternally. Sunday morning Christ gave of Himself (i.e., from His divinity) and raised us as a glorified people now able to walk through walls...no longer flesh and blood. Hence our sinful life died eternally at the cross.
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39316 - 05/19/05 12:18 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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"The many" examined in its context yields "all"....Read Paul again.
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#39317 - 05/19/05 04:47 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
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Quote:
Can anyone help me with answers.
Lets blow away all the theological sophistry and nonsense.
There is only ONE kind of death. Some people get to do it TWICE. The "second death" is what happens at the end of the thousand years. Noone has done it yet.
We are nothing more (or less) than an incredibly complex chemical reaction. Put all the right atoms in the right places, and - voila - there is me.
Not all those atoms are needed to keep my memories, instincts, behavior patterns intact. Cutting off my arm, pouring glucose into my veins, or teaching me new tricks changes me, but does not make a new me.
When we "die" there are two steps.
First we loose consciousness - the ability of our brains to detect our environment and to form thoughts and memories. The critical and delicate chemical reactions in the brain have been disrupted.
Then we loose our chemicals - their own reactions destroy them, or we are cremated, or we get eaten by other organisms.
Consider, for example, the Japanese at ground zero in Hiroshima - instantly vaporized. Consider Terry Schiavo - critical brain chemistry destroyed but much of the rest functional.
God has the power to put together a new collection of atoms into the right configuration to restore all the memories, etc. that make "me". This is no different to a computer user backing-up and restoring their data.
So - did Jesus die the Second Death?
Of course not. The only difference between the First and Second is WHEN it happens and the fact that God won't resurrect you afterwards, not WHAT happens.
All this stuff about 'separation from God' etc. is just fancy nonsense.
/Bevin
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#39318 - 05/19/05 06:05 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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The Toubadour
Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1845
Loc: Georgia/US
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The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18: 20. Jesus never sinned so He had the power to take up His life at the call of our Father. If we die the 2nd death we have no power to take up our lives because we have sinned. By becoming one with us He could die for sin and we (humanity) being one with Him, through the flesh, died with Him at the cross. That's how God can justify us by grace and not contradict what is written in Ezekiel 18: 20.
If we want to experience that justification we must believe that God justifies the ungodly, (sinners) not by our works for we can only sin without Him, but by faith.
This answers the lies of Satan that started sin in Eden. Satan described God as selfish and Eve believed the lie and Adam went along with it. So death and sin were passed on to us all. Now we have the question asked to us, "Do you really believe God is love and would die the 2nd death and that He will justfy you the way you are?"
Your answer reveals what you believe God thinks about you and what you think about Him. If we say no, then we are left with our own works as a means of justification. If we say yes, then our life changes and we can rest assured that our salvation is secure in Christ. Walk, (or live) in this truth, not being tossed around by feelings or what you see or any teachings that may disturb you. As we live in that truth, God (the Trinity) will be revealed more and more and as we behold we are changed from glory to glory. All this is possible because Christ was willing to die the 2nd death.
Hope that helps
Norman
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#39320 - 05/20/05 05:42 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Mandy]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
So - did Jesus die the Second Death?
Of course not.
Right...our fallen humanity died eternally "in Christ"....No coming back! That's the 2nd death - the no hope of a resurrection death....
In exchange Christ gave of Himself....Therefore "in Christ" we have a glorified humantiy in the heavenly places. See Eph 2:6 (if you even use your Bible)!
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39321 - 05/20/05 05:49 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
Quote:
"The many" examined in its context yields "all"....Read Paul again.
I could read Paul a million times but I would never see what you are saying it to mean.
Compare Romans 5:18 to verse 19
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous....
"The many" = "all men"
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39322 - 05/20/05 11:04 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 993
Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...
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no... Just because Paul says that all men are justified, not all men would choose to be justified and in the end, saved. Robert, I hope you are not deceiving people by teaching universal salvation without free will!!! Dont be deceived and don't deceive.
"The many" does not equal "all men"
_________________________
It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#39323 - 05/20/05 12:57 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
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Quote:
Right...our fallen humanity died eternally "in Christ"....No coming back! That's the 2nd death - the no hope of a resurrection death....
Hey, Robert and I agree on something!
Jesus died once.
People who are saved die either zero on one times and end up alive forever.
People who are not saved died either one or two times and end up no longer existing at all forever.
/Bevin
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#39324 - 05/20/05 11:41 PM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
no... Just because Paul says that all men are justified, not all men would choose to be justified and in the end, saved. Robert, I hope you are not deceiving people by teaching universal salvation without free will!!! Don’t be deceived and don't deceive.
"The many" does not equal "all men"
See...there's your problem. You do not even understand the fundamentals of the gospel you purport to know....
The Bible clearly teaches that Christ saved all mankind at the cross. Since you deny this truth you naturally present a perverted gospel of works....
Let's go to the clearest Bible statements on this issue...It is found in Eph 2:4-10
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions [sinful, condemned and under law], made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Please note that God saved you "in Christ" when you were dead in transgressions....He linked you together with Christ and hence YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED! Note the past tense....
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
Christ has saved you and has taken your glorified life into heaven itself....You can't add your works to your fully restored life "in Christ"...."In Him" YOU ARE COMPLETE.
7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eventually you became an individual and God revealed to you "the riches of His grace...in Christ Jesus." God used someone or something to introduce you to the good news."
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
Again, God saved you in Christ some 2000 years ago....As an individual you received this by faith. Faith does not save...because "in Him" you already have it....But you do need to receive the gospel....Yes you were saved 2000 years ago, but when God invites you to accept His "finished work"...well, you would be crazy not to...
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Because Christ defeated the law of sin (self-love) in our humanity some 2000 years ago, He is willing to help you to experience that reality. The fruits do not add to your glorified life in Him....What is "in Christ" can't be touched...it is a righteousness that fully qualifies you now and in the judgment.
Rob
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39325 - 06/02/05 06:26 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Washington, USA
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Quote Norman:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18: 20. Jesus never sinned so He had the power to take up His life at the call of our Father. If we die the 2nd death we have no power to take up our lives because we have sinned. By becoming one with us He could die for sin and we (humanity) being one with Him, through the flesh, died with Him at the cross. That's how God can justify us by grace and not contradict what is written in Ezekiel 18: 20."
I have not been able to do any posting until today. I would like to thank every one who try to help me with answers to my question.
The above quote by Norman is the answer I have been looking for. Had Jesus Himself committed one single sin, He could not have been able to come back to life. The key to Jesus being able to come back to life from the eternal death is His 33 1/2 years of sinless living inspite of the fallen sinful human nature that He took from us. Death could not keep Him there. For the law to be absolutely just, it has to release Jesus from the death prisonhouse. Thanks Norman.
Thanks All,
yongttay
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#39327 - 06/04/05 04:26 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14193
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
Had Jesus Himself committed one single sin, He could not have been able to come back to life.
Just remember that Christ never died! Of course I am talking of Christ as God....What died was the humanity that Christ assumed.
Now if Christ as God had sinned...well, I don't even want to think about it.
Lucifer sinned and look at all the terrible things...but He wasn't God! If Jesus would have sinned He would have joined Lucifer and together they would have opposed God. Terrible....But of course the Trinity knew this wouldn't happen long before the incarnation.
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39328 - 06/06/05 08:45 AM
Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death?
[Re: Bunny]
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