Did Jesus die the 2nd death? - unOFFICIAL ADVENTIST FORUM

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#39305 - 05/16/05 09:25 PM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
yongttay Registered: 05/14/05 Posts: 119 Loc: Washington, USA	Quote: "NO, HE DIDN'T WEAR IT....WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT LIVES IN THE BELIEVER, DOES HE WEAR THE BELIEVER? NO...THE BIBLE STATES THAT HE RESIDES IN BELIEVER.... WHAT CHRIST AS GOD DID WAS TO BLEND OUR FALLEN HUMANITY WITH HIS DIVINE LIFE. THAT HUMANITY BELONGS TO YOU AND ME....IT IS WHAT DIED! THAT'S WHY PAUL CAN SAY, ...OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED WITH HIM....[ROM 6:6] YOU DIED TO THE LAW [IT DEMANDED YOUR DEATH...WHERE?] [ROM 7:4] IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. " Are you saying that the body of Christ is the part that died the second death at the cross, and that Christ's person or entity did not really died because He is God. Yongttay
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#39306 - 05/17/05 12:39 AM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: ]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 15441 Loc: Columbia, SC	Quote: You need to try to ween yourself off of TOTALLY relying on Paul's version of events Acts 9:15: But the Lord said to Him, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name [or to bear my truth] before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle [but notice this next statement] and set apart for the gospel of God. Rom 1:1 Paul was the Theologian of the New Testament. Almost half of the New Testament is Paul’s writing. He was set apart for the preaching of the gospel of God! Think about it…the other disciples wrote on the life of Christ, but Paul did much more….He explained the gospel!!! _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39307 - 05/17/05 01:06 AM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: ]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 15441 Loc: Columbia, SC	Quote: Are you saying that the body of Christ is the part that died the second death at the cross, and that Christ's person or entity did not really died because He is God. Yongttay No... Let's go back to the beginning of time...i.e., creation. When God made Adam He was not just creating a man...He (God) was creating "all men" in one man. Let's examine this truth: Acts 17:26 "He [God] made from one [Adam], every nation of mankind...." Ps 139:13 For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother’s womb.... Okay...we all know we come from mom, but when did God create you? You have two answers: 1] When you were conceived, or 2] When He made Adam. Well...if we continue on to verse 15 of Psalms chapter 139, we must pick # 2....Let's continue: 15 My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought [in my mother's womb? No!] in the depths of the earth. 16 Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. From where was Adam created? Gen 2:7 says from the earth - "from the dust of the ground". So God created David [the author of Psalms] when He created Adam. Even Eve came from Adam's side [see Gen 2:22,23]....Thus Paul could state, For man [mankind] does not originate from woman, but woman from man....[1 Corinthians 11:8] Now if you say that God created you at conception (#2) then we can blame God for creating you a sinner [see Ps 51:5]. Of course that is blasphemy for God is not the author of sin. Do you buy that you came from Adam...that you are his cells Xeroxed a trillion times over? Until we get this down we can't understand how Christ (as man) could die the 2nd death. Rob _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39308 - 05/17/05 09:16 AM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
yongttay Registered: 05/14/05 Posts: 119 Loc: Washington, USA	Quote: "Do you buy that you came from Adam...that you are his cells Xeroxed a trillion times over? Until we get this down we can't understand how Christ (as man) could die the 2nd death." I certainly agree with you that I came from Adam and that I am his cells Xeroxed a trillion times over. Like most adventists, I believe Jesus died the 2nd death and at this point of time He is the only one that had tasted that eternal death. My question was: How did He came back to life. Remember Jesus was ONE PERSON with two natures (divine and human) and not with two lives. How could you say that His humanity died but His divinity did not died unless you believe as non-sda christians do that when a man died, his soul continue living in heaven/hell.
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#39309 - 05/17/05 12:09 PM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: ]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 15441 Loc: Columbia, SC	Quote: How did He come back to life. Remember Jesus was ONE PERSON with two natures (divine and human) and not with two lives. How could you say that His humanity died but His divinity did not died unless you believe as non-sda christians do that when a man died, his soul continue living in heaven/hell. Jesus didn't come to save our natures....Jesus came to save us from the curse of the law...the 2nd death. To legally and lawfully save us from God's law that justly condemns us, Jesus (at the incarnation) had to assume "us"....Not our body, not our nature, but the whole fallen, man. Since we all share Adam's life, all Christ needed to do was assume that life. And He did at the incarnation. At the cross Deity did not sink and die, humanity died eternally....Sunday morning Christ was raised with a glorified humanity. Our old life stayed in the grave. _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#39310 - 05/18/05 02:15 AM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
yongttay Registered: 05/14/05 Posts: 119 Loc: Washington, USA	"Jesus didn't come to save our natures....Jesus came to save us from the curse of the law...the 2nd death." This is a very true statement and I don't dispute it. Jesus didn't come to save our natures, He came to save us from our sinful fallen human natures, He came to destroy them so that He can replace in us with His perfect sinless human natures which He lived for 33 1/2 years on earth. "Jesus (at the incarnation) had to assume "us"....Not our body, not our nature, but the whole fallen, man." Exactly. He became the whole fallen sinful man. When He died on the cross, His whole person or entity died the 2nd death. How did He came back to life when there is no resurrection for those who die the 2nd death. So far my question has not been answered yet. Thanks, Yongttay
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#39311 - 05/18/05 02:48 AM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
wicklunds Registered: 01/30/05 Posts: 993 Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...	Quote: Quote: You need to try to ween yourself off of TOTALLY relying on Paul's version of events Acts 9:15: But the Lord said to Him, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name [or to bear my truth] before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle [but notice this next statement] and set apart for the gospel of God. Rom 1:1 Paul was the Theologian of the New Testament. Almost half of the New Testament is Paul’s writing. He was set apart for the preaching of the gospel of God! Think about it…the other disciples wrote on the life of Christ, but Paul did much more….He explained the gospel!!! We still don't interpret the whole of the Bible through Paul!! Sorry to disappoint your plans to disjoint the whole scriptural account because of the wresting of the Pauline epistles. If it were a right dividing of the word of truth then you might have a bonafide argument, but you havent even addressed the man's initial question. You are sullying up the thread needlessly with your Pauline, Sequieraine, obscurantism. _________________________ It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#39312 - 05/18/05 02:53 AM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: ]
Ron Corson Registered: 08/16/00 Posts: 178 Loc: clarkston, wa, usa	Quote: Many Adventists believe that Jesus died the 2nd death. How did Jesus came back to life when there is no resurrections for those who die the 2nd death? Can anyone help me with answers. Thanks, Yongttay What you have witnessed here is the complete failure to answer your question. The reason is that to answer your question they must redefine the 2nd death. Scripture says there is no resurrection from the 2nd death the SDA tradition says Jesus not only died the 2nd death but was resurrected from it. The requirement for the 2nd death is to have died once previously, and be supernaturally raised for the judgment. Again Jesus did not die twice. And lastly for those who say Jesus suffered the wrath of God. There is not one New Testament verse that says Jesus suffered the wrath of God or anything like that. The Bible is very clear that men killed Jesus, the book of Acts states this 5 times. Again the 2nd death is not caused by man since the 2nd life is a supernatural event whereby man is raised from death to stand in the judgment. So the simple answer to your question is no Jesus never died the 2nd death. when the Bible talks about the result of sin being death it is not referring to the second death. Because were it not for the supernatural gift of God in life after death, death would be the end forever. God raises at the judgment some to life and some to everlasting destruction. It is those who have rejected God and stand at the judgment as rejectors of God that will suffer the 2nd death, the cessation of the supernatural life that they were temporarily granted to see their life in respect to the God that they have rejected. Hope that helps. It is important to remember that the only place in the Bible that talks about the 2nd death is in the book of Revelation and it does so exclusively in the terms of resurrected life as part of the judgment scenero. Being a highly symbolic book too much speculation on the judgment scenes may not always be helpful as our expectations of the future are often colored by thoughts that may not be appliable.
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#39313 - 05/18/05 03:44 AM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
Denise The Troubadours Love Registered: 01/11/05 Posts: 1864 Loc: Georgia, USA	Quote: I think 2 Cor 2:17,18 (RSV) sums it up nicely: 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord [His love see Ex 33:18], are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. Hi Robert, I love reading your posts, for it is truth, and is such a blessing! I am learning so much by reading them! Thanks so much for telling the good news of the gospel. I am trying to find this verse you quoted as 2 Cor 2:17, 18. I looked it up there, but didn't find it there, can you tell me where I can find it? I really liked that verse, as I do so many others! lol Thanks, God Bless. Denise :-) _________________________ Be Kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another... Eatonton Georgia
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#39314 - 05/18/05 04:19 AM Re: Did Jesus die the 2nd death? [Re: Bunny]
wicklunds Registered: 01/30/05 Posts: 993 Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...	Quote: First of all Christ didn't die just for those who believe and keep His commandments. That is a lie. He died for "all men"....In fact all men died "in Him": mmmm He might have died in order that all men might have the choice to choose life, but this says something altogether different... Mat 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." Christ, the omniscient, knew not all people would choose to obey and follow His leading people!!! Don't let overzealous Pauline gospelizers interpret the scriptures for you. _________________________ It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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