Amen to that Robert.

Norman

Hi life, for the record, I am not saying your are closed minded, I was saying that I would be praying for God to open you mind to this truth. If you were closed minded you would believe in God

I do have some questions for you about what you stated for the record. You said,

"For the record, it is my belief that when Jesus condescended to take upon Himself human form, it was the same nature received by Adam directly from our Father before Adam's transgression, when Adam was still capable of resisting temptation without any other powers than he already had received in himself."

How could Jesus have Adam's unfallen nature if He was born of a woman who had a fallen nature? Didn't He inherit His mother's flesh? If not, can you show me in the Bible how you come to this conclusion? I am not trying to be contrary, I really want to understand how you come to this conclusion.

The other questions I have are; What difference would it make if Jesus had a fallen nature as I believe or if He had the nature of Adam before his fall as you believe?

Since you mentioned Jesus temptation in the wilderness can you answer the above in context of His conflict with Satan in the wilderness.

eg.When He was tempted by Satan in the wilderness what advantage would He have possessing Adam's unfallen nature? What advantage would He have possessing Adam's nature after he sinned? Or, what disadvangtages in both cases?

I'm sure that you must have thought of these things at some point. If you could explain this I would be thankfull. Again, I truly want to understand.

Thanks much,

Norman

Hi Life, yes that was a typo, you know what I meant right?
(You may want to print this out and read it when you have time; I went a long on this)

Thanks for telling me why you believe what you do. Our interpretations of scripture and understanding of Jesus’ nature are different. Jesus taking on my fallen nature means a lot to me. It tells me that He would go to any lengths to save me. He became one with us through the flesh. That speaks to my heart and mind. What a loving self-sacrificing God. If I were to believe that He had some other nature than what I have I would be discourage and have to spend the rest of my life feeling inferior knowing that I’ll never be like Him in this life time. That is how important this belief is to me.

For me, not only is my hope future (glorified Norman), but also it is overcoming now. So naturally the question comes to mind if I believe that we can be like Jesus now (in character and without willful sin) then why are others and I not living that way? No one is like Jesus are they? Here’s where I believe the theory of holy flesh or unfallen nature can be brought in. I mean, that people see their lives and can’t get it together and then come to the conclusion that Jesus must have had an advantage by having a different nature to be able to overcome. This can further lead people to live a compromising life believing that they can’t overcome anyway. (I am not suggesting that you are that way, this is just to explain my thoughts)

So I am now left with the same question if I don’t accept Jesus having an unfallen nature. Why are others and I not living a life like Jesus? I have come up with three reasons. 1st most people have a self-defeating, partial understanding of what sin is. 2nd most people (Christians included) are trying to earn their salvation without knowing it, there is a misunderstanding of the gospel and for the most part it is not being preached. (Rom 1:16)
3rd Most people don’t understand the difference between sin and temptation.

1. Here’s what most people believe about sin. Question, what is sin? Answer, Sin is the transgression of the law. Is that true, yes it sure is that’s what it says in 1 John 3: 4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” I am going to say that if someone believes that sin is only the transgression of the law they will spend their life trying to do good in order to avoid sinning. The way man thinks is that he must do something to please God. So naturally if sinning is “breaking the law” and breaking the law is cussing, having some other god (nice car, beautiful home or what ever) cheating, stealing, lying etc, then all we have to do is to not do those things and we are not sinning. (This is how the people of Jesus time thought; think of the rich young ruler, the Pharisees, Lawyers, Priests and Sadducees. Jesus came in the fullness of time when the misunderstanding of God was at it’s greatest and so they did not recognize Him.) It is also the way most people think today.

If we look at 1 John 3:4 carefully I see something else in the verse that clearly tells me that sin is something else as well as breaking the law. The word is “Also.” “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

Here is the other more important definition of sin: “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;”

Notice, Jesus said that the Spirit would convict people of sin because they did not believe on Him. When I first saw that I was amazed! That was telling me that sin is unbelief and not only actions that reveal that I am law breaking. This is a paradigm shift. Now instead of focusing on our works to avoid sinning, I focus on believing Jesus. If we do that, it follows that we will not transgress by actions. If we don’t believe in Jesus, that is sin and the transgression of the law by actions will follow just as sure as the sun comes up after night.

To put this to the test, lets go back and visit Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before the fall. Satan calls to Eve, “Hey Eve, did God say that you shouldn’t eat of every tree in the garden?” You know the rest of the story. But she believed the lie and that is when she sinned and the transgression by action followed. (Adam ate also but he outright chose to be disobedient he was not deceived. Nevertheless he acted on the lie.) She did not believe Jesus and ultimately both of them did not believe that God is love.

When the last Adam was here, the question came to Him; do you believe that God is love? He answered that in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross. Yes, Father I believe you, I trust you to see me through. He revealed to us what it is like to have a loving relationship with the Father; to trust him fully. As Adam chose to separate himself from God (By unbelief) and it brought death; so Christ chose to separate Himself from God (By belief) and it brought life. (By going through with the sacrifice, Jesus knew there would be a separation, but He trusted God, “into thy hands I commend my spirit) “But not as the offence, so also is the free gift.” Romans 5:15

Not believing in Jesus is sin, which will be followed by the actions of transgressing the law. Sin takes place in the mind. (That, to me, is the complete interpretation of 1 John 3: 4.) In fact all the good works that the whole world could do is of no value without believing in Christ. All those works could not bring us into God’s favor or make us holy. I believe this is a problem in the world that keeps us from living a life that will reveal the character of Christ.

2. Having a misunderstanding of sin is one aspect that can keep us from living the life of Christ and the other is: not understanding or believing the Gospel of Christ for ourselves. Romans 1: 16. “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” As the last Adam, Christ came and lived here, died here, was raised here and went to be with the Father as our brother and High Priest. When he took upon Himself humanity He took upon Himself the people of the world and humanity was one with Him. When the last Adam or mankind died we died in Him when He was resurrected we were too and when He went to be in heavenly places we went too. (This is why I believe that Jesus had to have the same fallen nature as us or we could not be one with Him. Therefore His death would not atone for us. He could not have died for our sins because He would be going contrary to what God wrote in Ezekiel 18: 20 “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” That’s what this whole post that Yougttay started is about. But now we have Jesus and we one in Him as humanity so that when He dies, we die and when He’s raised, we are raised and as He sits in heavenly places so do we. Eph. 2: 4-6 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus) Now it is left up to us if we shall believe the love of God which will bring the experiences of Jesus in our life both the good and the bad (persecution). Believing the Gospel truly fees us to concentrate our love on God and we will reveal that to our fellow man.

3. The misunderstanding of temptation: I am as you are and you are as I am, we have the same basic needs as humans. We know what we’re a like. I say this because as I came to understand the difference between temptation and sin and I know that we all can understand and relate to what I will say next. As the result of not knowing what sin is and not understanding or believing the Gospel we leave ourselves open to the devils games. This one is one of his most successful. It is to tempt you and then tell you that you are the author of his thoughts and therefore you have sinned. After all, how could a true Christian think those thoughts? And look at what James says about this! James 1: 14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. This is true temptation but is not what I’m referring to.

Here’s what I mean: you are tempted to think about something that is wrong. Let’s say you are tempted to get angry with your pastor, well you have two choices: entertain that thought and get mad at him or think for a minute and say, “this is not my thought, this is not coming form me or God.” Let it go and do think about it any more and then overcome evil with good and either pray for your pastor and go and talk to him. Only good things come from the Father of lights above. A lot, if not all people have a strong tendency to think that they have done wrong for thinking those kinds and other thoughts. It is best to realize and admit that these are not our thoughts and praise God that we can see this! It will be freeing to the soul. At the same time it’s not wise to deceive ourselves either, we know when we have let these thoughts go too far. Still, at that point ask for forgiveness and believe with all your heart that God has so done. Rejoice in the Lord always and again I say rejoice.
So these are the points that I have concluded which tells me why we are not living the life we want.

1. Not knowing what sin is and trying to avoid bad deeds to show that we are not breaking the law and thereby sinning.

2. Not understanding or not believing the Gospel. This leaves us burdened and unhappy, not enthusiastic about sharing the good news of God in Christ. What is there to share if you don’t get it?

3. Not knowing what temptation is we take it and believe that we are the authors of such thoughts and basically weaken our witness and desire to seek God.


Overcoming these points, I believe, will make a great change in our lives. (My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.) My belief is that until we can clear our minds of this type of thinking, we cannot attain the level of Christ likeness that God has planned for us individually. We will continue to live in failure and try to reason away our failures and come up with self-defeating and faith weakening theories that will not bring us the joy we so desperately want and need in Christ.

This is why I believe as I do and it is of utmost importance to me. I know that my life would be very different if I believed other wise. I have gone through a lot in my life to come to this understanding. I still feel that I have inadequately explained my thoughts; I believe I’d need to write a book to get it right. I think there’s enough to get across what I am saying and how I believe though.

God bless,

Norman

Norman,

You have Great postings, I wish more club members will read them. I myself was very much inspired by them.

The sin of unbelief is the unpardonable sin. We are saved by believing in the birth, the life, the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Anyone of these four events missing will not save us from the wages of sin, namely death.

By His birth, Christ became a member of the human family, a chip of the fallen Adam. He had a fallen sinful human nature like us. He had no advantage over us. He could have sinned like we do, but He did not sinned.

By His life, Christ Changed the fallen sinful human nature to perfect sinless human nature in Him by living a perfect sinless life in His 33 1/2 years of earthly ministery.

By His death, Christ destroyed the fallen sinful human nature life in Him. He died the second death. Had He not lived a perfect sinless life of His 33 1/2 years on earth, He would remain in death forever.

By His resurrection, Christ overcome death, because death cannot contain Him there. Death can not keep a sinless person in its prisonhouse.

At the resurrection, Christ only brought back the perfect sinless human nature life with Him and left the fallen sinful human nature life in the grave forever. He will give that sinless life to whosoever believe in Him.

When we are born, we are born with the fallen sinful life of Adam. When we believe in Jesus, we will be born again with the perfect sinless life of the last Adam. That's why after our resurrection, those of us who believe in Jesus will have sinless life(eternal) and those of us who do not believe in Jesus will have the sinful life of Adam back. Since Jesus will not die again for the unbelievers, they will individually face the second death which mean goodbye to life.

Hi Yongttay, my hope is that people who read my posts will be blessed. This is the reason I joined Club Adventist. It started by reading one of Nicodema's posts. I was moved by her pain and then began to share what God put on my heart.

I don't like to argue, I like to uplift the One who has given His life so that I can be changed into His image. I thank you for the kind words, you have encouraged me my friend.

Norman