#39635 - 05/16/05 11:42 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: Halfstep Denise]
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Public Nuisance
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 2843
Loc: On the outside, looking in
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The woman involved would be portrayed as a scarlet harlot who seduced a good and moral man. Everyone would feel sorry for him. There would be questions asked about whether he was really the father of the child, and what she is trying to get out of him by accusing him.
She would be shamed/humiliated to the point that she no longer attends church, while he would be promoted (or moved to another church).
aldona
_________________________
www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne) Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each month “Man’s mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions.” — Oliver Wendell Holmes
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#39636 - 05/17/05 01:00 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: rmarte]
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Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 2882
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Sadly, I agree. It's wrong, but it would probably happen.
This is partially male/female and partially clergy/laity.
As one of my Seminary professors said, "There's a sort of cronyism among pastors." As a teacher studying in the Seminary, I experienced it; as a teacher in the denomination, it was commonplace; after the first Seeds conference, in a meeting of participants, my wife saw it directly for the first time.
I saw once when a pastor arranged for his church to make an interest free loan to set up his family members in a business which was supposed to provide ministry materials to the church. This was not announced to the church at large. I smelled a rat, based on what I could see, and asked for financial records to be released (after all, it's required by law).
They did a "Clinton dump," camouflaging the data in a huge release of everything, relevant and irrelevant, for years and years. Nevertheless, if one searched long enough, it was possible to discern that in excess of $12,000.00 had just 'disappeared.' But the cronies just closed ranks, and said, "What money? No, no. Everybody does it. Common practice."
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#39637 - 05/17/05 01:52 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: BradBurns]
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Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 646
Loc: Michigan, USA
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WOULD happen? It HAS happened!
_________________________
Catherine
God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26.
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#39638 - 05/17/05 08:22 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: rmarte]
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Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 4705
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Quote:
The woman involved would be portrayed as a scarlet harlot who seduced a good and moral man.
Yes, this is how she would be viewed by those who are friends of the man. However, the man would be viewed just as poorly by those that are the friends of the woman.
And both sides would be wrong.
The man and the woman are equally to blame. Both are equally sinners. Both need forgivness and acceptance.
Don't ever be fooled into thinking that affairs can be one-sided.
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#39639 - 05/17/05 07:35 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: CaregiverDee]
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Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2201
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
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A person I know was unmarried and serving as an assistant pastor, when his girlfriend told him she was pregnant. He voluntarily resigned his position. It turned out later that a DNA test revealed that another man had gotten her pregnant. Apparently he was married, and she wanted my acquaintance to marry her. So she apparently deceived him deliberately. My acquaintance became suspicious when the baby was supposedly born after only six months, yet seemed to be a fully developed, full-term baby. Still, if he had not been having premarital sex with her, he would not have been vulnerable to this deception.
_________________________
Ron Lambert
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#39640 - 05/17/05 08:02 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: CaregiverDee]
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Registered: 05/10/00
Posts: 7067
Loc: Colorado, USA
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Re: "The man and the woman are equally to blame."
In a situation where one is the pastor, and the other is a parish member, they are NOT equally to blame. The pastor must bear the blame.
Professional ethics place such a situation in a context where one person (parish member) is considered to be vulnerable, and the other (pastor) must not take advantage of the vulnerability.
In some states the law is beginning to recognize that relationship.
In some places, the courts are beginning to award damages for violations in this area. A recent award in this area is the Odenthal case which involved a former SDA pastor, and the Conference which employed him.
NOTE: As should be done in all cases, One can only evaulate the Odenthal case by a through review of all of the proceedings before all of the involved courts, to include the Supreme Court of the state in which the offense occured. In this case there were multiple decisions on the district, appaleate courts as well as a ruling by the Supreme Court of that state.
_________________________
Gregory
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#39641 - 05/17/05 08:23 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: RosebudB]
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Registered: 01/21/01
Posts: 1709
Loc: Corona, CA, US
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If a lady gets pregnant it is the man's fault!! He may have been seduced but he has no excuse! If a man trusts the lady to be unable to conceive he is the fool! Too many men blame the lady if she gets pregnant!
I've taught my grandsons the story of Boaz. Ruth tried to seduce him but he was 'on guard' and told her after her 'invitation' that night, to wait until he had a chance to consider the matter further and consult with 'adivsors'. That necessitated a bit of a delay so he could, incidentally, think about it further(my take). When he found out(later) that it was OK to accept her 'invitation' to 'cover her with his garment', he was ready and........she DID become pregnant. They, as a couple, were, indeed, progenitors of Christ!
"If the lady gets pregnant by you, fellow, it is you that caused it. Don't EVER forget that, young fellow! Lots of young ladies do not know the real risk of doing 'it' before marriage and in the heat of passion they throw all caution to the 'wind'. But it's YOU that made her pregnant--always remember that."-----this is what I taught my grandsons. I'm hoping they have and will listen.
Ben
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#39642 - 05/17/05 08:24 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: Halfstep Denise]
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The King's Daughter
Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 2747
Loc: Alaska
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Stan - Those who are placed in a position of spiritual authority are held to a higher standard by Abba Father. James 3:1 is quite clear on that. But having said that... I'm not sure what I would think faced with the possibility of disciplining one in a Pastoral role. I think that the qualifications of an Elder in 1 Timothy 3:2-7 would apply in this regard. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, *not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. NKJV Since the same instructions except for the one about being a novice, apply to deacons, but are not applied to school teachers... it seems that there is room for leniency in one area but not in the other. I wish I felt better about that statement... it could be argued that since she taught in a Christian School there is the element of spiritual authority. But truly, do we hold school teachers to have the same spiritual authority as we do Pastors, Elders, and Deacons? The application of teachers being held to a higher standard seems to be to those who teach the Gospel, that it not be corrupted, which Paul is explicit about to Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:2-11 remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm. (emphasis mine) :2cents: It seems to me, that Paul continues to exhort and goes to great lengths to ensure that what is taught is the Gospel of a risen Jesus, who came to save, not to condemn, and the importance of a love relationship with Him. Without that love relationship all becomes subject to dispute and interpretation of the law as doctrine.... It doesn't really answer your question I know...but what a sad and horrible choice you pose.  Again I would ask, how does this discussion focus our eyes on Jesus? It is through beholding Him we are become changed, and it is He that bends down with mercy and grace sufficient to blot out all our sin. Is there not sufficient vengeance laid in wait on the great and terrible day of JHVH? Should we not rejoice and grab hold of the grace offered us while the veil of mercy from True Jesus Sacrifice still covers the earth from the wrath of a just and mighty JHVH? Time is so very short. 
_________________________
A heart where He alone has first place.
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#39643 - 05/18/05 03:46 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 1569
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Where does grace fit in to this picture?
_________________________
[]http://www.clubadventist.com/ubbthreads/attachments/66105-Flower%20Bar.gif[/]
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#39644 - 05/18/05 04:11 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: RosebudB]
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Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 4705
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Quote:
In a situation where one is the pastor, and the other is a parish member, they are NOT equally to blame. The pastor must bear the blame.
I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. It takes two people to be involved in a morally wrong relationship. Both are sinners and accountable to God. Jesus died for each of them, not just the one upon whom some humans would place all the blame.
If one of the two that are involved in a morally wrong relationship is of a professional occupation such as pastoring, doctoring or counseling, then he or she may be at fault for another, additional sin: the sin of breaching the confidentiality and trust that such a professional relationship would normally entail.
But the sin of involvement in a morally wrong relationship is one in which both parties would equally be at fault.
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#39645 - 05/18/05 05:14 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: CaregiverDee]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Chrys, I think the reason Gregory said the pastor must bear the blame is because he holds a role in relationship to a parishoner that is similar to the doctor-patient role or the therapist-client role. In those dynamics, one party is seen as having an authoritative position over the other as the "expert" in whatever field -- whether medicine, human behavior, psychology, or the spiritual journey. It is way too easy to exploit the authority or expertise implicit in that role in order to seduce a client (parishoner) or mollify their conscience in the matter. That is why the one holding the "expert" role (doctor, therapist, pastor) bears more culpability than the one "under" them (patient, client, parishoner).
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#39646 - 05/18/05 06:25 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 06/29/02
Posts: 342
Loc: IN front of the Computer
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Quote:
Those who are placed in a position of spiritual authority
Teachers, are a very high and noble position, often underrespected, in my opinion.
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#39647 - 05/18/05 07:01 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: ]
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Benevolent Physician
Registered: 04/07/00
Posts: 5800
Loc: Sydney,Australia
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Quote:
Chrys, I think the reason Gregory said the pastor must bear the blame is because he holds a role in relationship to a parishoner that is similar to the doctor-patient role or the therapist-client role. In those dynamics, one party is seen as having an authoritative position over the other as the "expert" in whatever field -- whether medicine, human behavior, psychology, or the spiritual journey. It is way too easy to exploit the authority or expertise implicit in that role in order to seduce a client (parishoner) or mollify their conscience in the matter. That is why the one holding the "expert" role (doctor, therapist, pastor) bears more culpability than the one "under" them (patient, client, parishoner).
Well put Nico, and the reason medical disciplinary boards come down extremely heavily on a doctor abusing the professional relationship. I speak only for my own profession.
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#39648 - 05/18/05 03:21 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: StanJensen]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
Quote:
Those who are placed in a position of spiritual authority
Teachers, are a very high and noble position, often underrespected, in my opinion.
However, the parallels we are drawing here are between the "expert" or person in authority position and his or her "client". In the teacher's case, the client would be the children in his/her classroom. The teacher who got fired did not violate the children in her classroom -- she did not seduce or lure them into sexual acts, she did not perform sexual acts in their presence. What she did was done on her own time as her own private business, and was done with a mutually consenting adult of equal standing (for she was not teacher over HIM).
Personally, I suspect it's all about $$$$. The board was fearful of indignant parents having hysterics and yanking their kids out of the school, causing a tremendous loss of tuition income to the school. I would not be surprised if that was really the bottom line fueling the board's decision. I've seen it before, even in a case where the person in question had NO position of authority and earnestly, honestly, desperately sought help for their spiritual crisis.
As for Stan's question -- I agree with Aldona. She summed it up perfectly.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#39649 - 05/18/05 04:12 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: vanillasky.7]
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Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 7128
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
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Quote:
Where does grace fit in to this picture?
I was going to ask the same thing.
On an individual basis:
On record, Saul was given 3 strikes before he was out.
David had one terrible blot in his record, but he was not booted out.
Judas had 3 1/2 yrs of chances.
On a national basis:
After over 500 yrs already behind them, God gave Israel another 490 yrs before they were booted out as vineyard tenants.
Yea, where is grace in all these?
Gerry
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#39650 - 05/18/05 04:13 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 2882
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Quote:
However, the parallels we are drawing here are between the "expert" or person in authority position and his or her "client". In the teacher's case, the client would be the children in his/her classroom. The teacher who got fired did not violate the children in her classroom -- she did not seduce or lure them into sexual acts, she did not perform sexual acts in their presence. What she did was done on her own time as her own private business, and was done with a mutually consenting adult of equal standing (for she was not teacher over HIM).
The same would be true if she had a gambling addiction, or alcoholism, which through arrest or some other neutral actor, became public knowledge. For that matter, it would be true if she robbed a bank at night.
They would ALL, however, be failing the children in her classroom. Ellen White talks about it, and I can assure you, that character matters more than didactic proficiency.
Parents used to come to me, when I was an SDA school principal, and ask me whether to send their children to school A or school B. I always said, "Look at the teacher in that classroom, and ask yourself, 'At the end of the year, do I want my child to be like that teacher?'"
The Teacher IS the curriculum.
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#39651 - 05/18/05 04:17 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: StanJensen]
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Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 7128
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
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Quote:
Quote:
Those who are placed in a position of spiritual authority
Teachers, are a very high and noble position, often underrespected, in my opinion.
But they are sure losing my respect for them here in California for their constant bashing of the Governor's attempt to save the state from financial ruin by their constant demand for more & more tax money poured into that bottomless pit in the name of education.
Gerry
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#39652 - 05/18/05 04:31 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 05/10/00
Posts: 7067
Loc: Colorado, USA
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Nico has done very well in explaining my position that the pastor (in a pastor/member relationship) bears the responsibility and the blame.
Also, as I had previously stated, the law and the courts is comming to that same position.
_________________________
Gregory
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#39654 - 05/18/05 06:30 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 2882
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I did my graduate work in Religious Education. While I was studying, now 30 years ago, a major study of SDA youth was completed. They looked at the spiritual attitudes of college students, with relation to family practices. One in particular was "family worship." When they compared the group that had "regular family worship" with those who did not, they were surprised. There were no statistically significant differences in their spiritual attitudes. This led to distinguishing between the "pervasive" and the "distinctive." Regular family worship was a "distinctive" paractice, i.e., one labeled as "religious," or "spiritual." The way they lived was the "pervasive" aspect of their teaching. Well, that works in classrooms, too. Often the "distinctive" elements are processed in and out of short term memory in order to get a grade. But the "pervasive" behavior of the teacher sticks. Ask people to talk about their favorite teachers, and they almost always talk about pervasive elements: enthusisasm, inquisitiveness, openness, creativity, etc. Often the distinctives are long forgotten. It isn't the most brilliant mathematician who makes the best math teacher, but the one who enjoys math, and can communicate that joy to the student. The same is true in discipling. There are brilliant, eloquent speakers whose delivery reeks of manipulation. They're effective, but the bring in other manipulators, and those easily manipulated. Then there are simple souls who share God's working in their lives. Let me be in the second group every time. Quote:
[1] Given our recent history on the board that might risk sounding sarcastic, but it's absolutely sincere.
I take you at your word.
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#39656 - 05/18/05 08:24 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: vanillasky.7]
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Registered: 05/10/00
Posts: 7067
Loc: Colorado, USA
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Re: "Where does grace fit in to this picture?"
Susan has been a local church treasurer for many years. A Conference audit determines that Susan has been embezzeling church funds for the past ten years. Where does grace fit in:
Does grace mean that:
a) The civil authorities are not notified for prosecution?
b) Does grace mean that Susan is retained as treasurer?
c) Does grace mean that after she get out of prison, if she goes, that she is given a job as a treasurer?
My responses:
a) No, grace does not mean that the civil authorities are not notified. A clear Biblical teaching is that there are consequences to our actions. It is not against the Bible for Susan to have to face the consequences of her actions.
Susans sin was agains every person who contributed to the church during those ten years. A few influential people should not sin against all of those contributors by telling Susan she does not have to face consequences.
b) Absolutely not. Susan has demonstrated an unfittnes for the position. She should not be retained.
c) No. See above, Susan should not return to a position in which she has violated such a basic part of her responsibilities. She has a weakness in the area of money. Permantly remove her from that weakness.
_________________________
Gregory
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#39657 - 05/18/05 08:28 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: CaregiverDee]
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Registered: 05/10/00
Posts: 7067
Loc: Colorado, USA
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Re: "I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. It takes two people to be involved in a morally wrong relationship. Both are sinners and accountable to God."
Rape is not a sin.
When a person is raped, that person is not equally guilty with the other.
In a pastor/parish member relationship, some people, consider it to be some form of assult to incllude statuatory rape.
In some places the courts and the law are beginning to recognize that such is assult/statuatory rape, or some other crime.
_________________________
Gregory
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#39658 - 05/18/05 09:21 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: RosebudB]
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Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2201
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
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Gregory, I am sure you mean being raped is not a sin. Obviously raping someone else is a sin.
I think it should also be clear that in most cases, the victim of rape is not at all to be blamed, and shares in no guilt whatsoever. This is very important, because rape victims frequently feel guilty, when they should not.
_________________________
Ron Lambert
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#39659 - 05/18/05 10:38 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: RosebudB]
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Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.
Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 11812
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
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Ah, if real life were as easy [!  ] as this... Quote:
Susan has been a local church treasurer for many years. A Conference audit determines that Susan has been embezzeling church funds for the past ten years. Where does grace fit in:
Gregory,
You show a penchant for the punitive model that Ed has described.
Quote:
My responses:
a) No, [snip]
b) Absolutely not. [snip]
c) No. See above, [snip]
If Susan were to repent, say she's sorry, and was willing to pay it back, would you be willing to restore to her the trust she once had?
Biblically speaking, the OT allows for restoration/rehabilitation by payment plus [I believe in this case] 1/5 additional sum. The goal of restoration is to restore the trust between the parties invovled. Restoration involves repentance, pentance and payback.
Susan would have to start by saying that she is sorry, and she would have to be willing to pay back the money that she stole. And there are consequences that need to happen when a trust is violated. Temporary removal from her position is a good one. Surely during her probation period, she needs to NOT be in that position. But she does have expertise in accounting and the church will lose her expertise if she were sacked. So, give her a different job that is not using the accounting skills, say secretary to the Treasurer. Then give her time to build up her trustworthyness with other, say 24 months. During this time, she is on probation. She has no say in what goes where, and she does what she is told to do...At the end of that period, if things go well, she can have the Treasure's job back, or another accounting position that utilizes her full skills. This is one idea of restoration. Maybe you can think of another way to restore trust among her peers.
So, if Susan were to have embesseled say 25,000 over a ten year period, [realistically, large sums of money withdrawn tend to alert others to a problem/discrepancy, so logically, it should be small amounts over time that was taken], then Susan could repay this amount pluss the 1/5 more, ie 5000 + 25000= $30000 payback over time.
Quote:
Does grace mean that:
a) The civil authorities are not notified for prosecution?
I agree that civil authorities should be notified. I also agree that during the time that authorities determine as to whether a crime has been committed, is a time for the church, in this case, to determine if the restoration prinicples should be instituted.
Quote:
b) Does grace mean that Susan is retained as treasurer?
Again, the church has a valuable employee who has valuabble experience in accounting. If the church is a model for mercy, then restoration should be an option that the church should explore. Does this mean that during the 'restoration of trust' period, Susan should be tempted to use her accounting skills to embezzel some more? I agree, that no , she should not be placed in that position.
Quote:
c) Does grace mean that after she get out of prison, if she goes, that she is given a job as a treasurer?
I think that the church should make every attempt to get Susan to opt for the 'restoration of trust' instead of prison. If she chooses prison, then I think she has choosen the path that she desires to take and the church is obsolved of any consequence...
_________________________
Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
George Santayana
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#39660 - 05/18/05 10:44 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: res0pgdo]
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Husband and Father
Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 6096
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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I guess the other point here is that church treasurer in a local congregation is often a voluntary position, and not always one that requires a high level of education. In the case of a teacher or pastor who is branded as no longer suitable to hold their role in any place, ever as a result of sin, the penalty also includes the loss of tens of thousands of dollars and several years involved in the initial training for that career, and possibly in retraining for a new one. As has been noted here, that's appropriate for a teacher who molests or otherwise abuses a student, but for another offence, whether it be stealing, lying or sex in the worng context, I believe there needs to definitely be repentance and consequences, but that the consequence of losing a job for life is disproportionate to the 'crime'.
_________________________
If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve
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#39662 - 05/18/05 11:23 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 2882
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General points, not just for Bravus
1) I have not described any model, let alone a punitive one. I have simply addressed specific cases.
The workshops that I have done on this issue come under the title "Filling Your Cup," and I would describe as the nurturing model. This material has been presented and tested on three continents. It is not at all "punitive." The problem is that most people take one extreme or the other, when both are essential. There is no nurture without firm boundaries.
As C. S. Lewis wrote, "Mercy, when separated from justice, grows unmerciful."
2) No one should think I'm advocating that the school teacher in Berrien Springs should lose her teaching job for life. That would be absurd, and anyone who read that into my position is suffering a severe case of hardening of the categories.
If I were the principal there, I could even see her returning to teach at the same school, under certain circumstances.What happens for the rest of her life was not the problem I addressed. I only spoke to her current situation.
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