I would still be interested in comments re an unmarried Pastor getting someone pregnant, or getting pregnant.

Are there different unwritten standards for men or for women?

The woman involved would be portrayed as a scarlet harlot who seduced a good and moral man. Everyone would feel sorry for him. There would be questions asked about whether he was really the father of the child, and what she is trying to get out of him by accusing him.

She would be shamed/humiliated to the point that she no longer attends church, while he would be promoted (or moved to another church).

aldona

Sadly, I agree. It's wrong, but it would probably happen.

This is partially male/female and partially clergy/laity.

As one of my Seminary professors said, "There's a sort of cronyism among pastors." As a teacher studying in the Seminary, I experienced it; as a teacher in the denomination, it was commonplace; after the first Seeds conference, in a meeting of participants, my wife saw it directly for the first time.

I saw once when a pastor arranged for his church to make an interest free loan to set up his family members in a business which was supposed to provide ministry materials to the church. This was not announced to the church at large. I smelled a rat, based on what I could see, and asked for financial records to be released (after all, it's required by law).

They did a "Clinton dump," camouflaging the data in a huge release of everything, relevant and irrelevant, for years and years. Nevertheless, if one searched long enough, it was possible to discern that in excess of $12,000.00 had just 'disappeared.' But the cronies just closed ranks, and said, "What money? No, no. Everybody does it. Common practice."

WOULD happen? It HAS happened!

Quote:

---

The woman involved would be portrayed as a scarlet harlot who seduced a good and moral man.

---

Yes, this is how she would be viewed by those who are friends of the man. However, the man would be viewed just as poorly by those that are the friends of the woman.

And both sides would be wrong.

The man and the woman are equally to blame. Both are equally sinners. Both need forgivness and acceptance.

Don't ever be fooled into thinking that affairs can be one-sided.

A person I know was unmarried and serving as an assistant pastor, when his girlfriend told him she was pregnant. He voluntarily resigned his position. It turned out later that a DNA test revealed that another man had gotten her pregnant. Apparently he was married, and she wanted my acquaintance to marry her. So she apparently deceived him deliberately. My acquaintance became suspicious when the baby was supposedly born after only six months, yet seemed to be a fully developed, full-term baby. Still, if he had not been having premarital sex with her, he would not have been vulnerable to this deception.

Re: "The man and the woman are equally to blame."

In a situation where one is the pastor, and the other is a parish member, they are NOT equally to blame. The pastor must bear the blame.

Professional ethics place such a situation in a context where one person (parish member) is considered to be vulnerable, and the other (pastor) must not take advantage of the vulnerability.

In some states the law is beginning to recognize that relationship.

In some places, the courts are beginning to award damages for violations in this area. A recent award in this area is the Odenthal case which involved a former SDA pastor, and the Conference which employed him.

NOTE: As should be done in all cases, One can only evaulate the Odenthal case by a through review of all of the proceedings before all of the involved courts, to include the Supreme Court of the state in which the offense occured. In this case there were multiple decisions on the district, appaleate courts as well as a ruling by the Supreme Court of that state.

If a lady gets pregnant it is the man's fault!! He may have been seduced but he has no excuse! If a man trusts the lady to be unable to conceive he is the fool! Too many men blame the lady if she gets pregnant!

I've taught my grandsons the story of Boaz. Ruth tried to seduce him but he was 'on guard' and told her after her 'invitation' that night, to wait until he had a chance to consider the matter further and consult with 'adivsors'. That necessitated a bit of a delay so he could, incidentally, think about it further(my take). When he found out(later) that it was OK to accept her 'invitation' to 'cover her with his garment', he was ready and........she DID become pregnant. They, as a couple, were, indeed, progenitors of Christ!

"If the lady gets pregnant by you, fellow, it is you that caused it. Don't EVER forget that, young fellow! Lots of young ladies do not know the real risk of doing 'it' before marriage and in the heat of passion they throw all caution to the 'wind'. But it's YOU that made her pregnant--always remember that."-----this is what I taught my grandsons. I'm hoping they have and will listen.

Ben

Stan -

Those who are placed in a position of spiritual authority are held to a higher standard by Abba Father. James 3:1 is quite clear on that.

But having said that... I'm not sure what I would think faced with the possibility of disciplining one in a Pastoral role.

I think that the qualifications of an Elder in 1 Timothy 3:2-7 would apply in this regard.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, *not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. NKJV

Since the same instructions except for the one about being a novice, apply to deacons, but are not applied to school teachers... it seems that there is room for leniency in one area but not in the other. I wish I felt better about that statement... it could be argued that since she taught in a Christian School there is the element of spiritual authority. But truly, do we hold school teachers to have the same spiritual authority as we do Pastors, Elders, and Deacons?

The application of teachers being held to a higher standard seems to be to those who teach the Gospel, that it not be corrupted, which Paul is explicit about to Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:2-11

remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

(emphasis mine) :2cents:


It seems to me, that Paul continues to exhort and goes to great lengths to ensure that what is taught is the Gospel of a risen Jesus, who came to save, not to condemn, and the importance of a love relationship with Him. Without that love relationship all becomes subject to dispute and interpretation of the law as doctrine....

It doesn't really answer your question I know...but what a sad and horrible choice you pose.

Again I would ask, how does this discussion focus our eyes on Jesus? It is through beholding Him we are become changed, and it is He that bends down with mercy and grace sufficient to blot out all our sin.

Is there not sufficient vengeance laid in wait on the great and terrible day of JHVH? Should we not rejoice and grab hold of the grace offered us while the veil of mercy from True Jesus Sacrifice still covers the earth from the wrath of a just and mighty JHVH?

Time is so very short.

Where does grace fit in to this picture?