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#39644 - 05/18/05 04:11 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: RosebudB]
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Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 4849
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Quote:
In a situation where one is the pastor, and the other is a parish member, they are NOT equally to blame. The pastor must bear the blame.
I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. It takes two people to be involved in a morally wrong relationship. Both are sinners and accountable to God. Jesus died for each of them, not just the one upon whom some humans would place all the blame.
If one of the two that are involved in a morally wrong relationship is of a professional occupation such as pastoring, doctoring or counseling, then he or she may be at fault for another, additional sin: the sin of breaching the confidentiality and trust that such a professional relationship would normally entail.
But the sin of involvement in a morally wrong relationship is one in which both parties would equally be at fault.
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#39645 - 05/18/05 05:14 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: CaregiverDee]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Chrys, I think the reason Gregory said the pastor must bear the blame is because he holds a role in relationship to a parishoner that is similar to the doctor-patient role or the therapist-client role. In those dynamics, one party is seen as having an authoritative position over the other as the "expert" in whatever field -- whether medicine, human behavior, psychology, or the spiritual journey. It is way too easy to exploit the authority or expertise implicit in that role in order to seduce a client (parishoner) or mollify their conscience in the matter. That is why the one holding the "expert" role (doctor, therapist, pastor) bears more culpability than the one "under" them (patient, client, parishoner).
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#39646 - 05/18/05 06:25 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 06/29/02
Posts: 342
Loc: IN front of the Computer
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Those who are placed in a position of spiritual authority
Teachers, are a very high and noble position, often underrespected, in my opinion.
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#39647 - 05/18/05 07:01 AM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: ]
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Benevolent Physician
Registered: 04/07/00
Posts: 5909
Loc: Sydney,Australia
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Quote:
Chrys, I think the reason Gregory said the pastor must bear the blame is because he holds a role in relationship to a parishoner that is similar to the doctor-patient role or the therapist-client role. In those dynamics, one party is seen as having an authoritative position over the other as the "expert" in whatever field -- whether medicine, human behavior, psychology, or the spiritual journey. It is way too easy to exploit the authority or expertise implicit in that role in order to seduce a client (parishoner) or mollify their conscience in the matter. That is why the one holding the "expert" role (doctor, therapist, pastor) bears more culpability than the one "under" them (patient, client, parishoner).
Well put Nico, and the reason medical disciplinary boards come down extremely heavily on a doctor abusing the professional relationship. I speak only for my own profession.
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#39648 - 05/18/05 03:21 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: StanJensen]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
Quote:
Those who are placed in a position of spiritual authority
Teachers, are a very high and noble position, often underrespected, in my opinion.
However, the parallels we are drawing here are between the "expert" or person in authority position and his or her "client". In the teacher's case, the client would be the children in his/her classroom. The teacher who got fired did not violate the children in her classroom -- she did not seduce or lure them into sexual acts, she did not perform sexual acts in their presence. What she did was done on her own time as her own private business, and was done with a mutually consenting adult of equal standing (for she was not teacher over HIM).
Personally, I suspect it's all about $$$$. The board was fearful of indignant parents having hysterics and yanking their kids out of the school, causing a tremendous loss of tuition income to the school. I would not be surprised if that was really the bottom line fueling the board's decision. I've seen it before, even in a case where the person in question had NO position of authority and earnestly, honestly, desperately sought help for their spiritual crisis.
As for Stan's question -- I agree with Aldona. She summed it up perfectly.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#39649 - 05/18/05 04:12 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: vanillasky.7]
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Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 7322
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
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Where does grace fit in to this picture?
I was going to ask the same thing.
On an individual basis:
On record, Saul was given 3 strikes before he was out.
David had one terrible blot in his record, but he was not booted out.
Judas had 3 1/2 yrs of chances.
On a national basis:
After over 500 yrs already behind them, God gave Israel another 490 yrs before they were booted out as vineyard tenants.
Yea, where is grace in all these?
Gerry
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#39650 - 05/18/05 04:13 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 2991
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Quote:
However, the parallels we are drawing here are between the "expert" or person in authority position and his or her "client". In the teacher's case, the client would be the children in his/her classroom. The teacher who got fired did not violate the children in her classroom -- she did not seduce or lure them into sexual acts, she did not perform sexual acts in their presence. What she did was done on her own time as her own private business, and was done with a mutually consenting adult of equal standing (for she was not teacher over HIM).
The same would be true if she had a gambling addiction, or alcoholism, which through arrest or some other neutral actor, became public knowledge. For that matter, it would be true if she robbed a bank at night.
They would ALL, however, be failing the children in her classroom. Ellen White talks about it, and I can assure you, that character matters more than didactic proficiency.
Parents used to come to me, when I was an SDA school principal, and ask me whether to send their children to school A or school B. I always said, "Look at the teacher in that classroom, and ask yourself, 'At the end of the year, do I want my child to be like that teacher?'"
The Teacher IS the curriculum.
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#39651 - 05/18/05 04:17 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: StanJensen]
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Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 7322
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
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Quote:
Quote:
Those who are placed in a position of spiritual authority
Teachers, are a very high and noble position, often underrespected, in my opinion.
But they are sure losing my respect for them here in California for their constant bashing of the Governor's attempt to save the state from financial ruin by their constant demand for more & more tax money poured into that bottomless pit in the name of education.
Gerry
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#39652 - 05/18/05 04:31 PM
Re: Pregnancy costs teacher her job. How would a Pastor be treated?
[Re: ]
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Registered: 05/10/00
Posts: 7086
Loc: Colorado, USA
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Nico has done very well in explaining my position that the pastor (in a pastor/member relationship) bears the responsibility and the blame.
Also, as I had previously stated, the law and the courts is comming to that same position.
_________________________
Gregory
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