I did my graduate work in Religious Education.

While I was studying, now 30 years ago, a major study of SDA youth was completed. They looked at the spiritual attitudes of college students, with relation to family practices. One in particular was "family worship." When they compared the group that had "regular family worship" with those who did not, they were surprised. There were no statistically significant differences in their spiritual attitudes.

This led to distinguishing between the "pervasive" and the "distinctive." Regular family worship was a "distinctive" paractice, i.e., one labeled as "religious," or "spiritual." The way they lived was the "pervasive" aspect of their teaching.

Well, that works in classrooms, too. Often the "distinctive" elements are processed in and out of short term memory in order to get a grade. But the "pervasive" behavior of the teacher sticks.

Ask people to talk about their favorite teachers, and they almost always talk about pervasive elements: enthusisasm, inquisitiveness, openness, creativity, etc. Often the distinctives are long forgotten.

It isn't the most brilliant mathematician who makes the best math teacher, but the one who enjoys math, and can communicate that joy to the student.

The same is true in discipling. There are brilliant, eloquent speakers whose delivery reeks of manipulation. They're effective, but the bring in other manipulators, and those easily manipulated.

Then there are simple souls who share God's working in their lives.

Let me be in the second group every time.

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[1] Given our recent history on the board that might risk sounding sarcastic, but it's absolutely sincere.

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I take you at your word.

Re: "Where does grace fit in to this picture?"


Susan has been a local church treasurer for many years. A Conference audit determines that Susan has been embezzeling church funds for the past ten years. Where does grace fit in:

Does grace mean that:

a) The civil authorities are not notified for prosecution?

b) Does grace mean that Susan is retained as treasurer?

c) Does grace mean that after she get out of prison, if she goes, that she is given a job as a treasurer?

My responses:

a) No, grace does not mean that the civil authorities are not notified. A clear Biblical teaching is that there are consequences to our actions. It is not against the Bible for Susan to have to face the consequences of her actions.

Susans sin was agains every person who contributed to the church during those ten years. A few influential people should not sin against all of those contributors by telling Susan she does not have to face consequences.

b) Absolutely not. Susan has demonstrated an unfittnes for the position. She should not be retained.

c) No. See above, Susan should not return to a position in which she has violated such a basic part of her responsibilities. She has a weakness in the area of money. Permantly remove her from that weakness.

Re: "I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. It takes two people to be involved in a morally wrong relationship. Both are sinners and accountable to God."

Rape is not a sin.

When a person is raped, that person is not equally guilty with the other.

In a pastor/parish member relationship, some people, consider it to be some form of assult to incllude statuatory rape.

In some places the courts and the law are beginning to recognize that such is assult/statuatory rape, or some other crime.

Gregory, I am sure you mean being raped is not a sin. Obviously raping someone else is a sin.

I think it should also be clear that in most cases, the victim of rape is not at all to be blamed, and shares in no guilt whatsoever. This is very important, because rape victims frequently feel guilty, when they should not.

Ah, if real life were as easy [!] as this...

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Susan has been a local church treasurer for many years. A Conference audit determines that Susan has been embezzeling church funds for the past ten years. Where does grace fit in:

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Gregory,

You show a penchant for the punitive model that Ed has described.

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My responses:

a) No, [snip]


b) Absolutely not. [snip]


c) No. See above, [snip]

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If Susan were to repent, say she's sorry, and was willing to pay it back, would you be willing to restore to her the trust she once had?

Biblically speaking, the OT allows for restoration/rehabilitation by payment plus [I believe in this case] 1/5 additional sum. The goal of restoration is to restore the trust between the parties invovled. Restoration involves repentance, pentance and payback.

Susan would have to start by saying that she is sorry, and she would have to be willing to pay back the money that she stole. And there are consequences that need to happen when a trust is violated. Temporary removal from her position is a good one. Surely during her probation period, she needs to NOT be in that position. But she does have expertise in accounting and the church will lose her expertise if she were sacked. So, give her a different job that is not using the accounting skills, say secretary to the Treasurer. Then give her time to build up her trustworthyness with other, say 24 months. During this time, she is on probation. She has no say in what goes where, and she does what she is told to do...At the end of that period, if things go well, she can have the Treasure's job back, or another accounting position that utilizes her full skills. This is one idea of restoration. Maybe you can think of another way to restore trust among her peers.

So, if Susan were to have embesseled say 25,000 over a ten year period, [realistically, large sums of money withdrawn tend to alert others to a problem/discrepancy, so logically, it should be small amounts over time that was taken], then Susan could repay this amount pluss the 1/5 more, ie 5000 + 25000= $30000 payback over time.

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Does grace mean that:

a) The civil authorities are not notified for prosecution?

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I agree that civil authorities should be notified. I also agree that during the time that authorities determine as to whether a crime has been committed, is a time for the church, in this case, to determine if the restoration prinicples should be instituted.

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b) Does grace mean that Susan is retained as treasurer?

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Again, the church has a valuable employee who has valuabble experience in accounting. If the church is a model for mercy, then restoration should be an option that the church should explore. Does this mean that during the 'restoration of trust' period, Susan should be tempted to use her accounting skills to embezzel some more? I agree, that no , she should not be placed in that position.

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c) Does grace mean that after she get out of prison, if she goes, that she is given a job as a treasurer?

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I think that the church should make every attempt to get Susan to opt for the 'restoration of trust' instead of prison. If she chooses prison, then I think she has choosen the path that she desires to take and the church is obsolved of any consequence...

I guess the other point here is that church treasurer in a local congregation is often a voluntary position, and not always one that requires a high level of education. In the case of a teacher or pastor who is branded as no longer suitable to hold their role in any place, ever as a result of sin, the penalty also includes the loss of tens of thousands of dollars and several years involved in the initial training for that career, and possibly in retraining for a new one. As has been noted here, that's appropriate for a teacher who molests or otherwise abuses a student, but for another offence, whether it be stealing, lying or sex in the worng context, I believe there needs to definitely be repentance and consequences, but that the consequence of losing a job for life is disproportionate to the 'crime'.

Absolutely. Being victimized by rape it not a sin. I thought we were talking about morally wrong relationships. I'm sorry if I misunderstood this topic of conversation.

My apologies.

I will stand in my opinion, however, that a sexually immoral relationship requires active participation from two parties.
Assuming these parties are of average or above-average intellect, then they are equally guilty of the sin of sexual immorality.

General points, not just for Bravus

1) I have not described any model, let alone a punitive one. I have simply addressed specific cases.

The workshops that I have done on this issue come under the title "Filling Your Cup," and I would describe as the nurturing model. This material has been presented and tested on three continents. It is not at all "punitive." The problem is that most people take one extreme or the other, when both are essential. There is no nurture without firm boundaries.

As C. S. Lewis wrote, "Mercy, when separated from justice, grows unmerciful."

2) No one should think I'm advocating that the school teacher in Berrien Springs should lose her teaching job for life. That would be absurd, and anyone who read that into my position is suffering a severe case of hardening of the categories.

If I were the principal there, I could even see her returning to teach at the same school, under certain circumstances.What happens for the rest of her life was not the problem I addressed. I only spoke to her current situation.