#40531 - 05/26/05 05:19 PM
Re: Fashion police, look here!!!
[Re: ]
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Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.
Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 13252
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
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Sorry Niel... I just don't get it. All I was trying to do initially was bring people's attention to the fact that we arent much different than the world in the way we dress.
So, why didn't you just say this instead of quoting EGW?
Why do you need to have her words back up your thoughts?
Most people who desire to exert a major influence on others [and lets be honest here, Dennis, this is not the only time you have attempted to do this on this board], have used her to insist that the church is...'one step on a bannana peel and the other on a slippery slope', AKA going to hell in a handbasket. This general insistance that the church is totally wrong in this area, this condemnation that the church has forgone her Lord's glory due to some inspecific wayward wanderings from Him, does nothing but to create more of a burden on the Church. This attitude is not generally recognised by those who want to control for thier own purposes or politic the church. Instead, they can use the overall agenda of condemning of members of the church due to the church's Laodicain condition. And if I, and I true mean this, if *I* am burdened already with my own cares and failings, why would the Lord inisist on adding additional burdens to His church, ie spying, making other conform to a non-specific standard such as beauty/dress? Such actions are laying the ground work for accusatory workings, and Satan *is* the accuser of the church.
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And yet, this makes me the worst kind of blasphemer, and this constitutes a denial of the Holy Spirit leading in other's lives. Care to rearrange the thoughts of your post so that I could understand better why my post warrants such condemnation? It is the least you could do for a brother.
What I said was done to arrest your attention....I truely believe that there are cynics, even religious cynics [Jesus calls them pharisees] whose sole purpose is to condemn church members without cause or to build up thier own agenda.
In my mind, [notice that I insisted that this is MY working understading, and not a general church teaching] a cynic is one who has "blasphemed the Holy Spirit"...That is, a cynic will make excuses for the actions of others and not recognise the Spirits workings in other peoples lives.We all know that to blaspheme the HS is to not listen to His reasoning. A cynic's whole attitude is one of condemnation and/or control. And exmample of a cynic is an atheistic cynic, who makes the excuse that Christians need Christ because they are weak, or they need to borrow a set of rules to live by because they can not make thier own. Any miricle that the Christian sees happening in his own life, is summarily dismissed by other selfish factors according to the cynic. "He's honest because he dont wnat to get caught".
If you want to truely influence the church, [or C/A], you need to build trust. Trust is a relationship between members in which honesty of who we are is open to all. Trust between members is a relationship that defends individuals and gives to them dignity, supports their spiritual growth [hence the reason that I am replying to you] and realises that members here are subject to many influences that can overwhelm them. C/A, in my view, exists to help members define and overcome those influences with the help of others whose tender regard for one another superceeds the condemnation of those less interested in the welfare of others.
I am no moderator, and probably it's a good thing that I am not. I can not abide knowing all those posting rules they apply to others and how they do thier job is beyond me, in my thinking. But I can bring another perspective without the weight of being a moderator. While some would question my sanity, sometimes, there is the need to arrest the attention of an individual and make impressions on them to cause them to stop and think. Such was your case.
You insisted on us to go out and spy on church members and compare the world standards of dress to church standards. This is laying the ground work for Satan's accusations. You were doing the devils work, in my mind. We tried to tell you not to go there, but you would not listen. [another characteristic of a cynic]. In fact, you were not even open to the possiblity that you might be mistaken...Concider Gail's posts where she asked you "Where is this happening?" Nothing could dissuade you from being possibly mistaken or over zealous in your condemnation... So, what were we to do? How could we tell you that you might be wrong, in a general sense, if you insisted that you were right and would not listen.... I admit, the 2x4 routine is not the best to way to make an impression on a person, but it can open the door just a bit to let some fresh air in a stale dark cellar. 
Of course, there is the possiblity that you might be right, and I am totally off base....
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Nah! 
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.
George Bernard Shaw
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#40532 - 05/26/05 05:32 PM
Re: Fashion police, look here!!!
[Re: ]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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I'm curious to know how you think we should be dressing. Are you simply concerned about overly-revealing clothing in church and/or the "fashion parade"? Or do you have in mind a specific style of dress that will stand out as very obviously different? Are your concerns primarily for what you see women doing, or do you also want to see men dressing differently as well? How practical would be the type of dress you envision? Would it be possible to purchase the items or would people have to return to constructing their own garments at home because no such things would be available in stores?
Let's pretend you were given total freedom to design a dress code for church. What would it look like? I'm curious to know. I'm not looking to poke fun at it or anything. I just want to know your thoughts, since you raised the subject. You've only mentioned thinking we dress too much like the world, but you have not mentioned what it is you would like to see us dress like.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#40533 - 05/26/05 05:38 PM
Re: Fashion police, look here!!!
[Re: ]
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The King's Daughter
Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 2747
Loc: Alaska
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Quote:
I'm curious to know how you think we should be dressing. Are you simply concerned about overly-revealing clothing in church and/or the "fashion parade"? Or do you have in mind a specific style of dress that will stand out as very obviously different? Are your concerns primarily for what you see women doing, or do you also want to see men dressing differently as well? How practical would be the type of dress you envision? Would it be possible to purchase the items or would people have to return to constructing their own garments at home because no such things would be available in stores?
Let's pretend you were given total freedom to design a dress code for church. What would it look like? I'm curious to know. I'm not looking to poke fun at it or anything. I just want to know your thoughts, since you raised the subject. You've only mentioned thinking we dress too much like the world, but you have not mentioned what it is you would like to see us dress like.
Hear hear! Excellent questions... I'd like to know too. I have a daughter into sewing and patterns and my sister will be here soon too.... a design discussion...
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#40536 - 05/26/05 06:53 PM
Re: Fashion police, look here!!!
[Re: ]
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 993
Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...
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Quote:
I'm curious to know how you think we should be dressing. Are you simply concerned about overly-revealing clothing in church and/or the "fashion parade"? Or do you have in mind a specific style of dress that will stand out as very obviously different? Are your concerns primarily for what you see women doing, or do you also want to see men dressing differently as well? How practical would be the type of dress you envision? Would it be possible to purchase the items or would people have to return to constructing their own garments at home because no such things would be available in stores?
Let's pretend you were given total freedom to design a dress code for church. What would it look like? I'm curious to know. I'm not looking to poke fun at it or anything. I just want to know your thoughts, since you raised the subject. You've only mentioned thinking we dress too much like the world, but you have not mentioned what it is you would like to see us dress like.
Nico,
I want to thank you for at least giving me a chance to explain myself rather than fly off the handle in vitriolic condemnation of my motives as others have done here (*cough*). What I really see happening is a lack of modesty and simple taste. Maybe it is because it is all the person has to wear to church, or maybe it is that more clothing would be too much an expense, but skirts are far too short, shoes are too flashy (strappy sandles exposing the feet), dresses too trendy with slits going up to the hip, necklines are plunging too far South, etc... Men are just as guilty in the trendy areas, but their dress is less noticeable because there is no flesh being revealed (at the moment anyway).
But the initial post of mine which quotes Ellen White, (When we reach the standard that the Lord would have us reach, worldlings will regard Seventh-day Adventists as odd, singular, straight-laced extremists. "We are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.) gives credence to the observation that there is no difference between our dress and the world at large. How is it that we are peculiar and set apart for God? I don't know, maybe we should go back to wearing linen tunics??? I don't have a magic silver bullet to quell this beast at present.
_________________________
It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#40537 - 05/26/05 07:28 PM
Re: Fashion police, look here!!!
[Re: res0pgdo]
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Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 993
Loc: In the heart of SDA culturevil...
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So, why didn't you just say this instead of quoting EGW?
Because I am still persuaded that hers is an authoritative voice in church practice and matters of lifestyle and habit. You know, she said her work involved more than that of a prophet, and more than a pastor as some in this forum would assert. And that, my friend, is where most disagree.
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Why do you need to have her words back up your thoughts?
For the same reason as I quoted above. And as I can readily see from yours and others' reaction to EW, she is not any different than any other authoritative prophet given by those of old whether Jeremiah, Isaiah, or John the Baptist. They were stoned and hated by them too. And you presume to call my faith in God into question? Let us take heed where we stand...
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Most people who desire to exert a major influence on others [and lets be honest here, Dennis, this is not the only time you have attempted to do this on this board], have used her to insist that the church is...'one step on a bannana peel and the other on a slippery slope', AKA going to hell in a handbasket.
And what is your assessment of the NAD condition? As it was in the days of Noah...
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This general insistance that the church is totally wrong in this area, this condemnation that the church has forgone her Lord's glory due to some inspecific wayward wanderings from Him, does nothing but to create more of a burden on the Church.
The church bears no burden except that one she chooses to acknowledge, and in your mind, it apparently doesnt exist. You know, out of sight out of mind as they say, right?
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This attitude is not generally recognised by those who want to control for thier own purposes or politic the church. Instead, they can use the overall agenda of condemning of members of the church due to the church's Laodicain condition. And if I, and I true mean this, if *I* am burdened already with my own cares and failings, why would the Lord inisist on adding additional burdens to His church, ie spying, making other conform to a non-specific standard such as beauty/dress? Such actions are laying the ground work for accusatory workings, and Satan *is* the accuser of the church.
What, my friend am I in control of? A church office? I cannot name one chair of authority that I am sitting in right now, and maybe you are right that it is for the better. I don't know what I could possibly do to help right now, other than hand out more books than I could possibly keep in my house. And let me make it abundantly clear that I meant no personal attacks on any one church or person in my call to observation in the first post. This is your twisting of it.
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What I said was done to arrest your attention....I truely believe that there are cynics, even religious cynics [Jesus calls them pharisees] whose sole purpose is to condemn church members without cause or to build up thier own agenda.
I am convinced that people who call someone else a Pharisee, are themselves guilty of being one. I truly believe that P-word you used is of no value other than to marginalize a class of Adventists who are calling the church to faithfulness regarding our historic leading in observatioon and practice of the principle given through the prophet EW. Ours is the worst kind of us and them battle a church could have fashioned by the hand of the Devil himself. And I do not care to do battle on those terms any longer. I hope we could see things on different terms. The devil's first job is to confound the language of God's people, then to conquer through division. You and I are a prime microcosm of the larger condition of the denomination's pews, though most will not acknowledge it. By the way, there are lots of ways to get my and others' attention, preaching them into hell is probably not the best Niel.
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In my mind, [notice that I insisted that this is MY working understading, and not a general church teaching] a cynic is one who has "blasphemed the Holy Spirit"...That is, a cynic will make excuses for the actions of others and not recognise the Spirits workings in other peoples lives.We all know that to blaspheme the HS is to not listen to His reasoning. A cynic's whole attitude is one of condemnation and/or control. And exmample of a cynic is an atheistic cynic, who makes the excuse that Christians need Christ because they are weak, or they need to borrow a set of rules to live by because they can not make thier own. Any miricle that the Christian sees happening in his own life, is summarily dismissed by other selfish factors according to the cynic. "He's honest because he dont wnat to get caught".
Lord, I pray I will never question anothers' sincerity of belief and assume that their faith is mere presumption. What more dangerous a track is that person who thinks their faith is superior to others. Talk about the P-word... Because a person calls out a slide in standards, does that disqualify his faith? I don't understand this at all. I have heard about people being shunned because of this very thing, and it ought not be. Do we all change to accomodate the one who may be uncomfortable with our high standards, or do we change to accomodate the one who desires higher standards in spite of popular opinions? You decide.
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If you want to truely influence the church, [or C/A], you need to build trust. Trust is a relationship between members in which honesty of who we are is open to all. Trust between members is a relationship that defends individuals and gives to them dignity, supports their spiritual growth [hence the reason that I am replying to you] and realises that members here are subject to many influences that can overwhelm them. C/A, in my view, exists to help members define and overcome those influences with the help of others whose tender regard for one another superceeds the condemnation of those less interested in the welfare of others.
Lets look at that word, dignity for a moment, because you say that building trust is about instilling dignity in a person:
dig·ni·ty Audio pronunciation of "dignity" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dgn-t)
n. pl. dig·ni·ties
1. The quality or state of being worthy of esteem or respect.
2. Inherent nobility and worth: the dignity of honest labor.
3.
1. Poise and self-respect.
2. Stateliness and formality in manner and appearance.
4. The respect and honor associated with an important position.
5. A high office or rank.
6. dignities The ceremonial symbols and observances attached to high office.
7. Archaic. A dignitary.
You say that tender regard is lacking by some here on the forum, and when I read your response to my initial post, I am not reminded of a person who is trying to develop trust by instilling dignity. I see the opposite. But I am a forgiving person, and I want to make peace with people, especially those of my own house. Please, Niel, I think your point here is well received, but our conduct with each other lacks the wisdom that our mouths profess. Jesus said to them, they honor me with their mouths but their heart is far from Me. This always makes me want to weep, because it is often fitting with what I will say and do. When I look at the pictures in my mind's eye, I do not see the practice matching the profession. I nees eye, and mouth salve. When Peter was told that unless he had his feet washed in order to see the kingdom, Peter said for the Lord to wash it all in that case. We need the Lord to wash all of us, including our spiteful mouths. Church standards aside.
_________________________
It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4}
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#40539 - 05/27/05 01:32 AM
Re: Fashion police, look here!!!
[Re: ]
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Latitudinarian
Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 1234
Loc: Silver Spring, MD, USA
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After 7 long pages of this, one might wonder who it is that we claim to be followers of....
I suppose if one claims to be a follower of Jesus, one would look to Him first for counsel on what one thinks an important topic of concern to the Church....
Here is what He had to say to the Pharisee fashion police of his day:
"Therefore, do not worry about...what you will wear....And why do you worry about clothes?...So do not worry, saying... 'What shall we wear?'... But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness..."
Tom
_________________________
"Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good."
"Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal."
"I love God only as much as the person I love the least."
*Forgiveness is always good news.
(And finally, the ideas expressed above are soley my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
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#40540 - 05/27/05 01:53 AM
Re: Fashion police, look here!!!
[Re: Johan]
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Here Forever, by Request :)
Registered: 07/30/01
Posts: 18479
Loc: Out standing in a field
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Amen to that Tom
_________________________
"Earth - insane asylum for the universe." - Maxine " Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him..."1 John 2:15-16
 Fairview Or
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