Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#58018 - 10/24/05 06:34 AM In the Beginning…was Magic
Aliensanctuary Offline


Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 472
Loc: Northern California
Magical Thinking and Origins

For many, many years, Magical Thinking has controlled our ideas on how life on earth began. Before the concept of Magic Evolution became politically correct, most people believed that a Magic God who spoke Magic Words was responsible for everything around us. Magic God spoke, and “POOF!”, massive or complex things instantaneously appeared or processes happened.

When Magic Evolution became our intolerant master, proponents of Magic Creation were scorned and ridiculed and rendered institutionally disadvantaged for believing in a Magic God who could make anything just by speaking Magic Words. Although Magic Evolution, too, could conjure complex, self-replicating life forms out of just a few chemicals, of its own accord and with no known controlling mechanism, it called itself Science and insisted Magic Creation was Religion only, disconnected with Science.

Magic Creation fought back, though, pointing out the problems with Magic Evolution and showing that Earth’s geology and Fossil Record could also be interpreted by Magic Creation. Magic Creation pointed out the record of massive Sudden Death in the Fossil Record as evidence for a Worldwide Flood. Magic Evolution interpreted it as an explosion of Sudden Life.

Magic Creation insisted that all Life was created in basic categories, able to reproduce itself, but only within these categories. Although all life forms were created to adapt to changing conditions, they were unable to cross over into different categories. Magic Evolution insisted that all Life descended from a single, primitive cell that assembled itself from raw materials in such a way that it could reproduce itself. Its descendents mutated, mutated again, and continued to mutate until the whole world was filled with complex and diverse life forms, all related to the First Mother/Father Cell. Magic Evolution said that lizards turned into birds and whales crawled up out of the sea to become land animals.

Although both accounts of Origins sound preposterous at first glance, the battle lines were drawn, and it was a fight to the death. Magic Evolution gained control of the education system, indoctrinated the children, often embraced fraudulent evidence as Truth, and denounced any alternative thinking as Religion. Religion fought back, publicizing the loopholes and improbabilities in Magic Evolution, pointing out the frauds and hoaxes, and winning converts from their ideological opponents. Genetic reshuffling resulting in different colors or sizes of an animal or plant is a common occurrence, they argued, but self-synthesis of completely new DNA codes resulting in new functions has never been observed.

Magic Evolution couldn’t demonstrate how life created itself, Magic Creation couldn’t demonstrate there was a Magic God. The War of Origins was a stalemate.

Top
#58019 - 10/25/05 01:58 AM Re: In the Beginning…was Magic [Re: ]
Aliensanctuary Offline


Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 472
Loc: Northern California
The Law of Cause and Effect

The universe we know operates on the Law of Cause and Effect. If we see an Effect, we know that something caused it. If we initiate a Cause, we know an Effect will follow, perhaps imperceptibly, perhaps a little later, but always, there will be an Effect.

Science is the attempt to understand Causes and Effects. Once they’re understood, others can perform the same Cause and observe the same Effect. This is Experimental Science. Experiments can be performed to prove whether a Scientific Idea is True or False.

Theoretical Science is the attempt to explain Causes or Effects that are undergoing testing, or can’t be tested at all. Magic Evolution cannot be tested because we cannot travel back in time to observe it, and we cannot demonstrate it in a laboratory experiment. If Magic Evolution could demonstrate an experiment in which a DNA molecule, the Code of Life, created itself out of a solution of simple chemicals, then reproduced itself, then Magic Evolution would become simply, Evolution, the Truth. Anyone could reproduce the experiment and achieve the same results. There could be no other alternatives.

In the same way, Magic Creation can’t be tested, because we cannot travel back in time to observe it. If we could obtain absolute proof that it was true, that is, by face-to-face public contact with one of God’s representatives, then Magic Evolution must be discarded.

By misinterpreting the Ancient Writings, Magic God Believers ignore the Law of Cause and Effect and cast contempt on Religion. They think that Magic God spoke, and it happened, because Magic Words are sufficient to be the Cause. Understood correctly, God, not Magic God, ordered the surface of the Earth to be altered to make it suitable for life, then ordered the synthesis of life. God (not his real name), the powerful leader of an extraterrestrial civilization, gave the orders, others carried them out. To our dwarfish Earthminds, this feat of planetary landscaping and creation of life might seem farfetched, but to an ancient, highly advanced extraterrestrial civilization, it would be child’s play. They’ve done it before…

It took technology to create life, not spontaneous generation of life from non-life, not miracles. There’s no such thing as “miracles”, only Effects we cannot explain with our limited understanding of the universe and the forces it contains. It took highly advanced technology to write and assemble the codes into a wide range of living, functioning creatures capable of adapting to changing environmental conditions.

Again, there are no miracles, only Cause and Effect. When eyewitnesses saw Jesus heal someone, they described it as a miracle. The healing was the Effect, but what was the Cause? We can postulate, but not prove, one possible scenario. Like Jesus, in the Bible, described as possessing a spirit, some sort of force within which records and stores memories, we too have a similar spirit. Connecting every living thing is the Spirit of God, the creative, healing, life-sustaining force that permeates the universe. Jesus requested, via his spirit, that the Spirit of God heal someone, and it responded by rapidly repairing the afflicted person via their spirit. After death, our memories are put in storage, then later scanned for the presence of evil. Those who are chosen will have their cleaned-up memories downloaded into new bodies, free of mutations, immune to death. Those who are left behind will face permanent destruction.


So then, we have two major possibilities on Origins: Life created itself, or, Life was brought here or assembled here by Extraterrestrials who went somewhere else, afterwards. It’s not so much the evidence we see, but what we want to believe that makes us either Evolutionist or Creationist. Both require Faith, Faith in what seems Impossible. Neither have hard scientific proof. Neither can be proven experimentally. We just believe. What we see in geology and the fossil record is colored by what we believe. To some, a few teeth and a jawbone becomes a grunting, stooped-over half-ape, half-human, covered with thick hair…

Some Evolutionists delight in insulting Creationists and deriding them and their qualifications with mean-spirited invective, when they themselves lack the ability to respond with logical proofs based on hard science. Some Creationists, whose God is some undefined, glowing nebulosity, located somewhere outside of the known universe, respond with religious jargon about sin and repentance and grace.

We can get our BS degrees from BSU and be able to prove our opponents are all morons while we exult in our triumphs. We can spew religious jargon and state that if the Bible says anything we believe it to say, it’s true. What we all need is to experience the forgiveness and the helpfulness of the one human whose memories came from somewhere else. If he came today, as he did a few thousand years ago, we too, would kill him. Isn’t that what we do to aliens?

True Christianity will make us all softer, kinder people.


Edited by Bravus (10/26/05 06:09 PM)

Top
#58020 - 10/26/05 06:19 PM Re: In the Beginning…was Magic [Re: ]
Bravus Global Moderator Online   content
Husband and Father

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 6653
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Doesn't that just push the mystery back a step? Where did the extraterrestrial life originate?
_________________________
It's like no-one ever read their Gibbon

Top
#58021 - 10/28/05 07:39 AM Re: In the Beginning…was Magic [Re: Billy Dennis]
Aliensanctuary Offline


Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 472
Loc: Northern California
(Thanks for fixing the typo)

My point isn't to try to determine the source of all life in the universe, a subject far beyond our scope, but just to comment on the difficulty of getting life to create itself on this planet. It's OK for someone to believe it did, but that's not hard Science, as some claim.

Some Magic Evolutionists hope there is some life-generating force out there somewhere that initiates microscopic life from basic chemicals wherever it can. I think there’s a little truth in that idea. This force, I believe, is the force that was present when life was created on Earth. The Bible calls it the Spirit of God. It used the codes to assemble life forms using Rapid Growth Technology. If the Spirit of God chooses to assemble microscopic life on some God-forsaken planet in our solar system, I’m OK with that, but would wonder why.

Looking at our structural similarities, then claiming man and ape descended from a common ancestor isn't hard Science either. I would call that Speculative "Science". There are the obvious similarities in the primates, so perhaps the basic DNA blueprint was modified by God/Spirit of God for one or the other before being finalized, then assembled on site.

We should agree with Magic Evolution that the Earth is indeed very old. The Earth was formed, according to Genesis, when the Universe was, and who knows how long ago that was. On the First Day of Creation, though, the Earth was already in existence, along with the angels (Messengers), the Son, the planets, and the stars. The only thing "created" on Day 1 was Light. The light wasn't really created, unless God was living in darkness up until that moment. If God is Light, then light already existed. He just said, "Turn on the Lights." God gave the order and a brilliant light was turned on in order to illuminate the dark planet, maybe to melt some fog or ice, too. I assume the high-intensity light came from one of the flying (high and lifted up) "mountains", spacecraft, really, mentioned several times in the Bible.

I just no longer believe in Magic Evolution, as I once did, nor do I accept Magic Creation, anymore, either. To me, the Bible is a record of extraterrestrial encounters, described in a skewed sort of way by the astonished, primitive natives of Earth who didn’t understand space travel or highly advanced technology.

We can look at the “miracles”: unexplained healings or other phenomenon, then try to understand what actually took place. We shouldn’t claim to understand all of the forces that exist in the universe, or limit our scope of understanding to the forces we currently know. There may be some blockbuster scientific surprises just around the corner, waiting to be discovered.

Just had a Star Trek kind of thought. What if God could send planets and suns to different parts of the universe? They would suddenly appear out of nowhere to any onlookers.

Top
#58022 - 11/01/05 08:02 AM Re: In the Beginning…was Magic [Re: ]
Aliensanctuary Offline


Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 472
Loc: Northern California
Quote:

When God created our universe, including our world, he also made the laws that govern everything. God is a god of law and order, and you can see this in the design of life, the laws of matter and energy, the laws of mathematics, and the laws for human and extraterrestrial behavior, including the Ten Commandments. He uses these laws to create things, to accomplish things, to keep things in order, and to fix things. The laws of behavior protect intelligent beings from harming one another or themselves. Jesus obeys these laws and principles, so do the unfallen angels. When Satan and his evil followers, and later, humans, broke these laws, terrible things began to happen.


The main goal of the good extraterrestrials is to bring men back to God, to turn them away from doing evil so he can delete evil from their life record and save them from destruction. The main goal of the evil extraterrestrials is to deface the image of God in men, to cause them to break the laws of God, to bring death and destruction to the earth, and to ultimately overthrow God’s government.


The good extraterrestrial beings are able to manipulate and alter atoms and molecules in ways we can only dream about. They can make plants and trees grow rapidly, change one substance into another, rapidly heal diseases or repair or replace human tissue, and even enter and occupy our minds, influencing the willing to choose good over evil.


Unfortunately, Satan and his helpers can do some of these things also, creating diseases and influencing men to choose evil over good. Assigned to each of us is one who makes an exact copy of every thought we’ve ever had, then takes this record to God for storage after we die.


The most important thing we can do, then, is to love God and Jesus first, obey their commands, obey the 10 Commandments, repent of the evil we have done, overcome our defects of character, and love others as ourselves. Self-sacrificing love is the great principle that guides all of the good extraterrestrials. That’s why Jesus willingly sacrificed himself for us…any of the good extraterrestrials would have done so, also.

From a letter to TM, 2-03






The Beginning

In the very beginning, God formed the universe, including the world we live on. This could have been thousands, millions, or even billions of years ago.

0-24 hours

No one knows exactly when the extraterrestrials first came to Earth, but it was probably just a few thousand years ago. When they first arrived in the skies above Earth, they found that its surface was in chaos, a frigid jumble of ice shrouded in a dense, frozen fog that enveloped the whole planet. The huge starship, which looked more like a beautiful mountain of light, hovered high above the misty darkness, probing unseen landmasses below the icy crust. The cold, dark, dead world slowly rotated far below the starship.

The Leader of the expedition gave the order for the First Stage of operations: "Lights!" When the Leader spoke, it was with a voice that sounded like trumpets and peals of thunder. Instantly, the darkness fled to the far side of the planet as a brilliant artificial sun swooped down into the thick fog and began to liquefy the frozen, lifeless surface from pole to pole with a barrage of intense light. Soon, huge islands of ice floated in ever-expanding seas. After the ice and fog were gone, endless waves swept across the face of a beautiful blue planet. The little sun took 24 hours to circumvent the world.

24-48 Hours

The next day, after the Leader said, "Space between the waters!" a powerful subsurface force field raised a thick layer of ocean water into a thinner band several miles above the surface. Another force field surrounded it from above, trapping the layer of water, compressing it under great pressure, preventing it from freezing into solid ice. The layer of water blocked harmful cosmic rays and provided containment for a rich, primeval atmosphere.

The intense light from the artificial sun hovering below the crystal-clear layer of water continued to spread warmth from pole to pole and surface to sky. No longer could ice or fog or clouds form, because warm temperatures now prevailed below the crystalline arc of the sky, preventing the freezing of water or the rapid escape of heat into space.

Thus, the entire planet was enclosed in an envelope of clear, liquid water, with a warm air space between the envelope and the surface of the planet. (The envelope of water would soon absorb heat from its future sun and release it during the night. Heavy mists would then form on the night side, providing moisture to the flora and fauna below.)

48-72 hours

After the second day of high-intensity meltdown of the ice-world, the Leader issued the Third Stage command, "Land!" With unimaginable power, the extraterrestrials pulled up a great world-sized land mass from the shallow seas, causing the entire planet to shudder from the cataclysmic displacement of land and water. Massive explosions of newborn volcanoes sent debris into the skies, covering nearby land areas with a soft blanket of ash. Giant tidal waves rocked the planet, grinding surface rock to powder, until all grew quiet.

Light from the little sun quickly dried out the land, a great expanse of sand, gravel, and volcanic ash. Beneath the newly uprisen surface lay an irregular network of subterranean rivers and seas filled with rocky debris and water, formed during the birth of the super-continent. After most of the land was dry, the mini-sun blazing in the sky greatly diminished in intensity.

The Leader gave another Third Stage command: "Plants!" His many helpers, who were highly intelligent beings made of Light, just as their leader was, went to the surface and quickly started a great number and variety of plants and trees, all designed to reproduce and propagate. Soon, vegetation would spread across the great plains, rolling hills, and gentle mountains of the entire planet, forming the foundation of a lush and beautiful tropical world.

In a short time, many of the smaller plants were already blooming due to an accelerated growth process. By the next morning, the once-bare land was covered with a carpet of green with graceful trees reaching for the sky.

72-96 hours

For the Fourth Stage, the Leader said, "Sun, Moon, Stars!" There was a deep shudder and the sound of many thunders rolled across the face of the planet. Then, the light of a bright yellow sun blazed down for the first time to warm and gladden greenhouse Earth. A warm, pleasant breeze began to blow, sending the delicious smells of fragrant blossoms across the land. The light from the mini-sun sputtered out completely as the permanent sun began its task. On the dark side of the planet, a full moon cast a cool glow of reflected sunlight to brighten up the night. Along with the moon and sun, a vast assembly of ancient, distant stars also appeared, a silent testimony to Earth that it was not alone. During the night, warm mists rose from the subterranean streams to water the vegetation, joining the mists descending from above.

96-120 hours

Fifth Stage: "Sea Creatures. Air Creatures!" ordered the Leader on the fifth day. On the surface, the helpers released birds and reptiles designed for flight in the rich, primeval atmosphere. They also released fish and mammals and reptiles and amphibians designed to live in the rivers and lakes and oceans. The sea and air creatures were programmed to reproduce, male with female, to fill the sky and the oceans with their offspring, and to adapt to various locations and conditions.

120-144 hours

For the Sixth Stage, the Leader said, "Land Creatures!" The helpers released every size and sort of land dwelling mammals, reptiles, and insects. They too were designed to reproduce and adapt and fill the earth with their kinds.

Then the Leader said, "Now we will make man!" From particles of matter taken from the Earth, the Leader assembled atoms and molecules and sequences and cells and systems and made a male and a female human in the same way as he had done with all of the other living things. Their form was similar to the Beings of Light, but they were made from matter, not Light.

He gave them clothing made of Light to cover themselves. He also input important information into their minds, giving them advanced communication skills and reasoning abilities. When they were awake and could understand what was happening, he said to them in a gentle voice, "You are in charge of all the Earth: the Land, the Seas, the Plants, and the Animals. All the plants are yours for food, and food for all the animals, too. And, like everything else living, you are made to reproduce in order to populate the whole world."

144-168 hours

For the Seventh and Final Stage, which was the seventh day of the modification and colonization of Earth with Life, the Beings of Light from an ancient, distant, powerful civilization stopped working and rested because they were finished. They looked over their work and the Leader said that everything was very good.

Top
#58023 - 11/12/05 07:31 AM Re: In the Beginning…was Magic [Re: ]
Aliensanctuary Offline


Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 472
Loc: Northern California
The preceeding post was just some ideas from a few years ago. I apologize for the following blooper from the quote above. I'll try to fix it:

Quote:

Unfortunately, Satan and his helpers can do some of these things also, creating diseases and influencing men to choose evil over good.

Assigned to each of us is a neutral spirit that makes an exact copy of every thought we’ve ever had, then takes this record to God for storage after we die.







The point of the previous posts is that we shouldn't limit ourselves to Magic when we think of the Origin of Life on Earth. Looking carefully at the Advanced Technology described in the Bible will give us a better understanding of YHVH and our origins.

We can attempt to prove Magic Evolution is true using our flawed human logic and incomplete information. We can extend our heads a little farther out of our butts and use a magnifying glass to look at a fossil, then guess how it got there, and call it science. We can use our dime-store magnifying glass that we found in a box of Cracker Jacks to see similarities in life and insist that it all mutated from one self-assembled cell. We can be the die-hards who get belligerent with those who doubt YHVH used Magic Words to create the Universe and Life in an instant.

To YHVH, our human wisdom is a joke, our theories absurd. We have no clue what real science is. All we have are dark glasses and Cracker Jacks toys to use to explore the secrets of the vast universe...

We can pick apart the record of what YHVH revealed to men, or denounce it as fiction, but all of our collected human wisdom isn't worth a pile of [deleted phrase - ROC 6, Norm] to The One who colonized this world with life. The person(s) who wrote Genesis saw something, then wrote it down, even though he may not have understood it or been able to clearly explain what he saw. We should be very grateful he at least wrote down something, otherwise, we would have nothing but pseudo-science to explain how we got here.


Edited by NormF (01/27/06 05:36 AM)

Top
#58024 - 11/16/05 02:33 AM Re: In the Beginning…was Magic [Re: ]
Aliensanctuary Offline


Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 472
Loc: Northern California
I'm very sorry for the tone of my last post. I'm afraid I was experiencing an acute attack of regression. It has caused me much suffering, and I do apologize for the crudeness and intolerance, a glimpse of my old self in attack mode. I recall being upset upon reading something by a Christian who supported evolution when I wrote it. I should have had my wife preview the post before sending it. She has tamed me down over the years and given me more of a sense of balance and tolerance of opposing ideas. All of my regrets to anyone I may have offended.



We all tend to box ourselves in when we believe something for a long time. It colors our understanding and perception of ideas and events. It's a miracle when we can step outside of our warm, comfortable boxes and embrace ideas that are more true.

It is true, I believe, that most of our human works and thoughts are pretty much worthless to God. The only thing that will survive the thermonuclear meltdown of the Earth are the kind words and deeds we have done for others, to feed or clothe or encourage them. Those are the qualities needed in those destined to replace those who left God's kingdom so long ago. Evil would continue indefinitely if selfishness were permitted in the afterlife. That's why we have to fight it here, to the death if necessary. The record of human Unselfishness is the only thing that will survive the destruction of the world by fire.

The Origin of Evil began with selfishness. Like any deadly virus, it has to run its course, but someday it will be eradicated. Nearly everyone living on Earth has acquired the disease, but only those who fight it with the help of God can survive. Not merely survive, but survive with a permanent immunity that can be shared with other inhabited worlds, if necessary.

Quote:

What is Evil?

Created by the Evil One himself, Satan, evil is the dark energy of chaos. It’s a highly contagious, fatal virus that brings ruin upon on everyone it infects, destroying goodness and beauty and peace. The virus of evil always brings selfishness, hatred, cruelty, conflict, destruction, disease, chaos, and death. To everyone embracing it, it causes permanent damage, leaving them even less able to resist its power over them.







If we believe that God did create life on Earth, we're like the 2 spies who went on a reconnaissance mission for Israel back in the days of Moses. They believed God when he said they could go up and occupy the Promised Land. With God's help, they were confident that they could conquer any enemy or obstacle.

The rest of the 12 spies looked at the obstacles, doubted God, lost faith, and caused many others to doubt God, also. Although they were experienced whiners and could prove that Moses, and therefore God, were incompetent bunglers, unfortunately, their bodies all dropped in the desert, while the 2 spies who believed God rode with courage on to glory and history.

With just a little faith, we need no longer fall victim to our evil and selfish desires. Then we, too, with a little practice, can ride into glory in the next life on the re-created Earth.

Top
#58025 - 01/13/06 08:07 AM Re: In the Beginning…was Magic [Re: ]
Aliensanctuary Offline


Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 472
Loc: Northern California
Mantra for Magic Creation

Magic God
Magic Words
Poof! Poof! Poof!
Magic Universe
Magic Planet
Magic Man
Good Fruit
Big Sin
Bad Fall
Bad Sickness
Bad Mutations
Bad Death
Big Bad Everywhere
Big Boat
Big Rain
Big Flood
Big Mud
Really Big Death
Big Fossils
Little Fossils
Big Time Evidence


Mantra for Magic Evolution

Magic Soup
Magic Juice
Really Big Time
Millions Millions Millions
Poof! Poof! Poof!
Really Big Magic
Life from Non-Life
Magic Self-Creation
Millions Millions Millions
More Big Magic
Many Different Creatures
All from One
Millions Millions Millions
Magical Mutations
Poof! Poof! Poof!
Fish Walk
Lizards Fly
Millions Millions Millions
Really Big Disaster
Really Big Death
Many Little Floods
Big Fossils
Little Fossils
Big Up Here
Little Down There
Big Comes from Little
Millions Millions Millions
More Big Magic
Poof! Poof! Poof!
Men and Apes are Brothers

Top


Moderator:  Bravus 
Who's Online
58 Registered (Asterix, BEEKIND, Beryl, Bob Carmin, Bravus, Bruce_G, CoAspen, cubensis, dgrimm60, fccool, fun2believe, Gerry Cabalo, Gladussee, John317, Kevin H, lazarus, LifeHiscost, Lineman, Loren Fenton, LynnDel, mikeyswen79, Morning Glory, Neil D, Nightingale, olger, Planey, puddles, Redwood, Reinhard Lee, Robert, Ron Ammundsen, 24 invisible), 345 Guests and 128 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Vegefood store

Be sure to click on the free shipping at the checkout else you get charged.

- - - - - -

Shout Box

The Chat Room

Come Chat with others,
open 24/7


- - - - - -
The following are google ads, these help to pay for the google ads we buy. Some are great, some are just strange. Report any nasty ones to Stan.
Newest Members
kdavis1, Ignore this spammer, RU4Christ, jd serhan, blessed1, Francis Kamuyu, zxatl, john sandifer, lilmogirl2267, princess sherly, ruthxa, BroRollo, nasiaki, JazzieBenzimsq, Mark Anthony, thegermanSDA, simonjonez, Fitz31, mensk, Michaelangelo, Brother Job, peacekeeper, Robert Alves, EastCoastRemnant, zen, Google, Pat Humphrey, SCRIPTAX2000, sKera9, Anders Branderud
2930 Registered Users
Adventist Ministries















l

Top Posters
Amelia 18200
Shane 16345
Robert 14947
Gail 13428
Neil D 12637
John317 9049
Redwood 7791
Gerry Cabalo 7320
Naomi 7196
Gregory Matthews 7084
Bravus 6653
Nan 5908
Shirley 5292
ChildofChrist 5046
Forum Stats
2931 Members
126 Forums
16984 Topics
162274 Posts

Max Online: 1237 @ 04/20/07 08:43 PM
30 days FREE

To become a full member, and view more forums. Please contact Stan, if you live in a developing Country or have other financial hardships, for a scholarship.
This income helps pay for hosting, advertising, domain names, software support etc etc
IF YOUR COUNTRY IS NOT LISTED OR IF YOU LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES

- - - - - - - - - - -

IF YOU LIVE IN NEW ZEALAND

- - - - - - - - - - -

IF YOU LIVE IN AUSTRALIA

- - - - - - - - - - -

IF YOU LIVE IN GREAT BRITAIN

- - - - - - - - - - -

IF YOU LIVE IN EUROPE

- - - - - - - - - - -

LIVE IN MEXICO

* * * NEW * * * NEW * * * NEW * * *