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Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don't see things the way you do.
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#684977 - 01/06/14 01:39 PM "Gay" baby blessing
lazarus Offline



Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 5183
Loc: Maryland USA
How would you feel if your pastor performed a baby blessing for a Lesbian couple? It was performed in a private setting but with the full knowledge that both "parents" were gay.
_________________________
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
Einstein

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#684980 - 01/06/14 01:49 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: lazarus]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
You did this?
_________________________
"Please don't feed the drama queens.."

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#684983 - 01/06/14 01:53 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: lazarus]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
I would not recommend doing a ceremony for a lesbian couple. I would offer to pray for the child - tell them that at 6 pm on Tuesday night (or some such date) you and your wife will pray for the child. What to pray for?

First, that the poor child will be able to break free from the moral error that it will grow up with, and second, that the "parents" repent and separate and give that child a proper home with both mother and father.

That's what I would do.


`oG
_________________________
"Please don't feed the drama queens.."

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#684991 - 01/06/14 02:16 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: lazarus]
Stan Jensen Offline
Very Adventist


Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 6033
Loc: Adventistan
I remember when unmarried couple had to sneak over to another Church or Priest, to commit their children.

What a shammed that to be.

Yeah, ,<tic> we only to the blessings for the worthy. </tic>
_________________________
The Lord bless you and keep you: The Lord make His face shine upon you, and be gracious unto you: The Lord lift up His countenance upon you, and give you peace. Numbers 6:24-26

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#685002 - 01/06/14 03:02 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: olger]
lazarus Offline



Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 5183
Loc: Maryland USA
Originally Posted By: olger
You did this?


LOL.
_________________________
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
Einstein

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#685030 - 01/06/14 06:50 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: lazarus]
dgrimm60 Offline


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 54999
Loc: dickson tenn
HEY ALL

Like the Bible says like the days of Noah and the days of Sodom and Gomorrah

dgrimm60

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#685031 - 01/06/14 07:10 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: lazarus]
CoAspen Offline


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 7054
Loc: Colorado
Bless the child! Bring Gods blessings on it! At the place of choosing....I don't think being near the parents is going to 'contaminate' anyone!

I wonder if Christ checked out the parents before saying 'let the children come unto me'?
_________________________

"You don't want to know the Truth, you want to know the truth as you understand it."

God from 'Conversations with God'

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#685068 - 01/06/14 09:34 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: dgrimm60]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: dgrimm60
HEY ALL

Like the Bible says like the days of Noah and the days of Sodom and Gomorrah

dgrimm60


True, man!!
_________________________
"Please don't feed the drama queens.."

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#688335 - 02/01/14 06:35 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: lazarus]
blackdiamond Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/09/13
Posts: 9
Loc: WA
The tone of this thread seems to be more judgmental than it needs to be. While I would never advocate for the church accepting the act of living together as a gay couple to be acceptable it's wildly hypocritical to exclude them from being welcome in our churches as non-members just like any of the rest of us that are guilty of sin.

I think it would be perfectly appropriate to have a service for this child an pray for the child to grow up to love and serve God and also that the parents to grow in their relationship with God so that they can provide support and guidance for the child. If the two mom's want their child to be blessed they obviously have, or want, a connection with God and pushing them away is certainly not going to reach them.

The Gospel is about love. One of the biggest shortcomings in the world today (both in and out of the church) is that make a directly link between association and agreement. We don't have to agree with or even approve of the way someone behaves to accept them into our church family and do everything we can to lead them to a better understanding of Christ. They don't have to be on-the-books members.

Sadly, if something like this were to happen in almost every church, it would be a significantly smaller church starting the next week. It might, however, be a more healthy church...

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#688338 - 02/01/14 06:54 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: blackdiamond]
pkrause Offline


Registered: 03/24/00
Posts: 57774
Loc: Deltona, FL
Originally Posted By: blackdiamond
The tone of this thread seems to be more judgmental than it needs to be. While I would never advocate for the church accepting the act of living together as a gay couple to be acceptable it's wildly hypocritical to exclude them from being welcome in our churches as non-members just like any of the rest of us that are guilty of sin.

I think it would be perfectly appropriate to have a service for this child an pray for the child to grow up to love and serve God and also that the parents to grow in their relationship with God so that they can provide support and guidance for the child. If the two mom's want their child to be blessed they obviously have, or want, a connection with God and pushing them away is certainly not going to reach them.

The Gospel is about love. One of the biggest shortcomings in the world today (both in and out of the church) is that make a directly link between association and agreement. We don't have to agree with or even approve of the way someone behaves to accept them into our church family and do everything we can to lead them to a better understanding of Christ. They don't have to be on-the-books members.

Sadly, if something like this were to happen in almost every church, it would be a significantly smaller church starting the next week. It might, however, be a more healthy church...
Exactly thumbsup
_________________________
phkrause

Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates his own love for us in that the Messiah died on our behalf while we were still sinners.

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#688391 - 02/02/14 12:55 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: pkrause]
Kevin H Offline



Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 2921
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pkrause
Originally Posted By: blackdiamond
The tone of this thread seems to be more judgmental than it needs to be. While I would never advocate for the church accepting the act of living together as a gay couple to be acceptable it's wildly hypocritical to exclude them from being welcome in our churches as non-members just like any of the rest of us that are guilty of sin.

I think it would be perfectly appropriate to have a service for this child an pray for the child to grow up to love and serve God and also that the parents to grow in their relationship with God so that they can provide support and guidance for the child. If the two mom's want their child to be blessed they obviously have, or want, a connection with God and pushing them away is certainly not going to reach them.

The Gospel is about love. One of the biggest shortcomings in the world today (both in and out of the church) is that make a directly link between association and agreement. We don't have to agree with or even approve of the way someone behaves to accept them into our church family and do everything we can to lead them to a better understanding of Christ. They don't have to be on-the-books members.

Sadly, if something like this were to happen in almost every church, it would be a significantly smaller church starting the next week. It might, however, be a more healthy church...
Exactly thumbsup


Amen. We have to remember while we have the key texts and we have to above all be fair to the Bible, there are debates out there among scholars about the context of these key texts or translation and there is a chance that our popular applications of these texts may be a misapplication.

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#688402 - 02/02/14 02:23 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: lazarus]
Indignus Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 76
Loc: Texas
The Bible condemns sex between a man and a man. A female lesbian couple is more or less acceptable.

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#688510 - 02/03/14 01:49 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: Indignus]
Green Cochoa Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 391
Loc: The Orient
Originally Posted By: Indignus
The Bible condemns sex between a man and a man. A female lesbian couple is more or less acceptable.


On the contrary, the women get the first attention in the following passage for such unnatural acts.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Romans
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

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#688515 - 02/03/14 10:34 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: Green Cochoa]
Indignus Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 76
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
On the contrary, the women get the first attention in the following passage for such unnatural acts.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Romans
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Well, technically, this is not only the first but also the last attention given to this subject in the Bible. And it was written by Paul, who had never met Jesus and had some pretty wacky ideas regarding women. Let us not forget Corinthians:

Quote:
1 Corinthians 14
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


I hope this helps! bwink

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#688516 - 02/03/14 10:48 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: lazarus]
Green Cochoa Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 391
Loc: The Orient
Indignus,

There are multiple other passages which address this, perhaps most clearly in Moses' books. Here's an example, lest you continue to believe that only Paul addresses homosexuality.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. (Leviticus 18:22-23)


Clearly, homosexual acts are an abomination to God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

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#688518 - 02/03/14 10:56 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: Green Cochoa]
Indignus Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 76
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Indignus,

There are multiple other passages which address this, perhaps most clearly in Moses' books. Here's an example, lest you continue to believe that only Paul addresses homosexuality.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. (Leviticus 18:22-23)


Clearly, homosexual acts are an abomination to God.

Green Cochoa, thanks for the passage! However, please note that this text explicitly addresses man-with-man sexuality, man-with-beast sexuality, and woman-with-beast sexuality. Woman-with-woman sexuality is not addressed, so we shouldn't assume that it is an abomination.

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#688520 - 02/03/14 11:10 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: lazarus]
Green Cochoa Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 391
Loc: The Orient
Originally Posted By: Indignus
Green Cochoa, thanks for the passage! However, please note that this text explicitly addresses man-with-man sexuality, man-with-beast sexuality, and woman-with-beast sexuality. Woman-with-woman sexuality is not addressed, so we shouldn't assume that it is an abomination.

Indignus,

So, do you feel it's okay for a woman to have two husbands since the Bible does not directly address this form of polygamy (polyandry)? Is it alright for a woman to covet her neighbor's husband, since the Ten Commandments do not reverse the genders on that command for us? Is it acceptable for a woman to see anyone's nakedness, regardless, since the Bible does not address it from the woman's perspective? And what happens to the poor man who is raped by a woman outside the city?

If women are not equal to men in these things, including even in the Ten Commandments, this opens up a huge can of worms.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

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#688524 - 02/03/14 11:29 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: Green Cochoa]
Indignus Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 76
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Indignus,

So, do you feel it's okay for a woman to have two husbands since the Bible does not directly address this form of polygamy (polyandry)? Is it alright for a woman to covet her neighbor's husband, since the Ten Commandments do not reverse the genders on that command for us? Is it acceptable for a woman to see anyone's nakedness, regardless, since the Bible does not address it from the woman's perspective? And what happens to the poor man who is raped by a woman outside the city?

If women are not equal to men in these things, including even in the Ten Commandments, this opens up a huge can of worms.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I believe you are over-thinking this subject :)

A woman cannot have multiple husbands, because any man in that relationship would be directly violating the 10th commandment. A woman typically cannot rape a man due to lack of physical strength and the inevitable willingness of the man to comply, but if she did succeed it would be a sin simply due to the violence. The same would apply to any forceful act.

I hope I am being clear on this subject, please let me know if not.

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#688532 - 02/03/14 12:55 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: Indignus]
Kevin H Offline



Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 2921
Loc: New York
I will be responding to the above discussion between Indignus and Green Cochoa: It looks like only Green's comments are quoted and I don't want my ideas to get confused with Indignus so my comments will be under the *** line below:
Originally Posted By: Indignus
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
On the contrary, the women get the first attention in the following passage for such unnatural acts.

[quote=The Bible] Romans
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Well, technically, this is not only the first but also the last attention given to this subject in the Bible. And it was written by Paul, who had never met Jesus and had some pretty wacky ideas regarding women. Let us not forget Corinthians:

Quote:
1 Corinthians 14
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


I hope this helps! bwink [/quote]
***************************************************

My comments to add to the above discussion are:
Actually Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus. And as a rich young ruler could have very well have been one of the Pharisees who was trying to check out what Jesus was saying, so may have seen quite a bit of Jesus.

But also his "Wacky" comments towards women make a lot of sense as you look at the literary and historical context. They are only "wacky" when we do what we do, pull them out of context and misapply the words willie nillie. It is the same thing with the texts that we are applying to homosexuality. We have the words, and we need to be fair to the words. But are we applying the words correctly or are we misapplying them and taking them out of context in the same way that Satan did when he quoted scripture to try to get Jesus to jump?

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#688538 - 02/03/14 02:52 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: Kevin H]
Indignus Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 76
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Kevin H
But also his "Wacky" comments towards women make a lot of sense as you look at the literary and historical context.

With all due respect, Kevin H, I think the lovely ladies on this forum would take offense to your comment.

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#688544 - 02/03/14 04:31 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: Indignus]
jackson Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 234
Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
I remember when unmarried couple had to sneak over to another Church or Priest, to commit their children.

What a shammed that to be.

Yeah, ,<tic> we only to the blessings for the worthy. </tic>


Why not request the couple go get married and then bring the child for commitment? That way, both they and the child would get a blessing.

When you in any way attempt to lessen the consequences of wrong behavior you are in fact encouraging wrong behavior.

There are several examples in scripture which, though seeming harsh or "unloving" are designed to discourage wrong behavior and have the greater good in mind.

Originally Posted By: Bible
Deut 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.


Did the Lord command this because He detested bastard children? No, for this strict law was to keep ever before the people the dire consequences resulting from extramarital relations. The stigma attached to a bastard child indeed seems unfair to the child , but it would act as a strong deterrent to sinful practices and perhaps save many from losing their salvation.

Originally Posted By: Bible
2 Sam 6:6 And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth [his hand] to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook [it].
6:7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for [his] error; and there he died by the ark of God.


This too seems harsh, but this act had a great effect on both King David and the people. They realized as never before, that it is no small thing to disregard the commands of God, and that God means exactly what He says and says exactly what He means. Who knows but God, how many souls were influenced for good by this one incident.

Originally Posted By: Bible
2 Kings 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.


Many when reading this Bible passage fear great pity for the poor children, but again God was sending a message to all that it is no small thing to mock or deride or His messengers . In addition it would cause the people to fear to harm or disrupt the work of his servants.

The SOP has a very telling explanation of this incident.

Originally Posted By: SOP
Elisha, at the very commencement of his work, was mocked and derided by the youth of Bethel. He was a man of great mildness, but the Spirit of God impelled him to pronounce a curse upon those railers. They had heard of Elijah's ascension, and they made this solemn event the subject of jeers. Elisha evinced that he was not to be trifled with, by old or young, in his sacred calling. When they told him he had better go up, as Elijah had done before him, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. The awful judgment that came upon them was of God. After this, Elisha had no further trouble in his mission. For fifty years he passed in and out of the gate of Bethel, and went to and fro from city to city, passing through crowds of the worst and rudest of idle, dissolute youth, but no one ever mocked him or made light of his qualifications as the prophet of the Most High. This one instance of terrible severity in the commencement of his career was sufficient to command respect through his whole life. Had he allowed the mockery to pass unnoticed, he might have been ridiculed, reviled, and even murdered by the rabble, and his mission to instruct and save the nation in its great peril would have been defeated. {5T 44.2}


Originally Posted By: olger
I would not recommend doing a ceremony for a lesbian couple. I would offer to pray for the child - tell them that at 6 pm on Tuesday night (or some such date) you and your wife will pray for the child. What to pray for?

First, that the poor child will be able to break free from the moral error that it will grow up with, and second, that the "parents" repent and separate and give that child a proper home with both mother and father.

That's what I would do.`


That would be a lot more loving then condoning their illicit behavior.

Originally Posted By: Jesus
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

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#688548 - 02/03/14 05:40 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: jackson]
rudywoofs Online   durdurdur
exwitch, researcher, Dash's Mom


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 9350
what about a baby dedication for a child whose mother is Adventist and whose father is not? you know, "unequally yoked" and all that... Should that child also not be dedicated? What about a child whose parents are divorced? or what if one parent is in prison? or what if one parent smokes? or... or... or...

c'mon people. The dedication is of the CHILD, NOT THE PARENTS!!! What about taking the high road of believing parents, even gay parents, would want the best for their children, including a dedication to God? Is it really so hard to do that?

I may be wrong, but I don't think gay parents would look upon the dedication of their child as "condoning" their unbiblical lifestyle. They're smart enough to know what the Christian stance is...
_________________________
Pam

Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup.

Mr. Watson, come here. I need marshmallows, chocolate and a heat source. - Alexander Graham Cracker

If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony.

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#688551 - 02/03/14 06:03 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: rudywoofs]
'nuff sed Offline
www.forestlakechurch.org


Registered: 07/08/00
Posts: 1830
Loc: Apopka, FL. USA
The dedication may be for the child/children BUT there is always the implication(sometimes an outright challenge) that the parents (and members of the church) will do all in their power to bring them up in accordance with the dedication. Nuff Sed


Edited by 'nuff sed (02/03/14 06:05 PM)

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#688571 - 02/03/14 07:45 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: 'nuff sed]
rudywoofs Online   durdurdur
exwitch, researcher, Dash's Mom


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 9350
Originally Posted By: 'nuff sed
The dedication may be for the child/children BUT there is always the implication(sometimes an outright challenge) that the parents (and members of the church) will do all in their power to bring them up in accordance with the dedication. Nuff Sed


that's right..
_________________________
Pam

Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup.

Mr. Watson, come here. I need marshmallows, chocolate and a heat source. - Alexander Graham Cracker

If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony.

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#688579 - 02/03/14 08:38 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: rudywoofs]
blackdiamond Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/09/13
Posts: 9
Loc: WA
Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
Originally Posted By: 'nuff sed
The dedication may be for the child/children BUT there is always the implication(sometimes an outright challenge) that the parents (and members of the church) will do all in their power to bring them up in accordance with the dedication. Nuff Sed


that's right..


And it's not our place to pass judgement. If they baby is dedicated there is the possibility that it will make a real impact on the mom's and they may possibly feel welcome in the church and as a result gain a better understanding of God. If the baby isn't dedicated, the mom's simply see a judgmental church that is a poor reflection on Christ.

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#688582 - 02/03/14 09:16 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: blackdiamond]
rudywoofs Online   durdurdur
exwitch, researcher, Dash's Mom


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 9350
Originally Posted By: blackdiamond

And it's not our place to pass judgement.


yes...that was my whole point :)
_________________________
Pam

Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup.

Mr. Watson, come here. I need marshmallows, chocolate and a heat source. - Alexander Graham Cracker

If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony.

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#688584 - 02/03/14 09:34 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: lazarus]
Green Cochoa Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 391
Loc: The Orient
Keep in mind, folks, that there is no Biblical precedent for, nor requirement for a baby dedication. Perhaps the nearest we come in the Bible is the birthright blessing, but this was often bestowed when the "child" was fully mature. Hannah's gift of her son Samuel to serve in the temple is a similar concept, she dedicating her son to the Lord, but it was not the priest who "dedicated" the child. A baby's circumcision on the eighth day is another near-equivalent, but a rather distinct ceremony from what we would call a "dedication."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

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#688585 - 02/03/14 10:03 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: rudywoofs]
CoAspen Offline


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 7054
Loc: Colorado
heavysigh

It never ceases to surprise me how often people see God only in their own image.
Me thinks God is constantly being surprised and astounded also by human kinds views of others which are not His and claiming to get their understanding from God! This subject is downright depressing!!!
_________________________

"You don't want to know the Truth, you want to know the truth as you understand it."

God from 'Conversations with God'

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#688589 - 02/03/14 10:37 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: lazarus]
debbym Online   content


Registered: 02/20/12
Posts: 1712
Loc: washington state
i would be happy another opportunity for scripture reading and prayer, and witnessing had happened, and pray for that household.
_________________________

deb

Love awakens love

Let God be true and every man a liar.

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#688591 - 02/04/14 12:31 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: CoAspen]
jackson Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 234
Originally Posted By: CoAspen
heavysigh

It never ceases to surprise me how often people see God only in their own image.
Me thinks God is constantly being surprised and astounded also by human kinds views of others which are not His and claiming to get their understanding from God! This subject is downright depressing!!!


i don't think this thread is depressing at all. It brings up a very important challenge that faces a Christian. One that requires thoughtful consideration and not emotion.

How and when should one rebuke sin yet remain compassionate?

Originally Posted By: SOP
To hate and reprove sin, and at the same time to show pity and tenderness for the sinner, is a difficult attainment. The more earnest our own efforts to attain to holiness of heart and life, the more acute will be our perception of sin and the more decided our disapproval of any deviation from the right. We must guard against undue severity toward the wrongdoer, but we must also be careful not to lose sight of the exceeding sinfulness of sin. There is need of showing Christlike patience and love for the erring one, but there is also danger of showing so great toleration for his error that he will look upon himself as undeserving of reproof, and will reject it as uncalled for and unjust. {AA 503.3}
Ministers of the gospel sometimes do great harm by allowing their forbearance toward the erring to degenerate into toleration of sins and even participation in them. Thus they are led to excuse and palliate that which God condemns, and after a time they become so blinded as to commend the very ones whom God commands them to reprove. He who has blunted his spiritual perceptions by sinful leniency toward those whom God condemns, will erelong commit a greater sin by severity and harshness toward those whom God approves. {AA 504.1}


The last part of that quote is oh so true. What happens now when one speaks out against practices that God condemns? Such a one may likely be called uncaring, intolerant, judgmental etc etc.- as if rebuking is unloving.

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#688592 - 02/04/14 12:56 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: jackson]
rudywoofs Online   durdurdur
exwitch, researcher, Dash's Mom


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 9350
Originally Posted By: jackson


How and when should one rebuke sin yet remain compassionate?

Originally Posted By: SOP
To hate and reprove sin, and at the same time to show pity and tenderness for the sinner, is a difficult attainment. The more earnest our own efforts to attain to holiness of heart and life, the more acute will be our perception of sin and the more decided our disapproval of any deviation from the right. We must guard against undue severity toward the wrongdoer, but we must also be careful not to lose sight of the exceeding sinfulness of sin. There is need of showing Christlike patience and love for the erring one, but there is also danger of showing so great toleration for his error that he will look upon himself as undeserving of reproof, and will reject it as uncalled for and unjust. {AA 503.3}
Ministers of the gospel sometimes do great harm by allowing their forbearance toward the erring to degenerate into toleration of sins and even participation in them. Thus they are led to excuse and palliate that which God condemns, and after a time they become so blinded as to commend the very ones whom God commands them to reprove. He who has blunted his spiritual perceptions by sinful leniency toward those whom God condemns, will erelong commit a greater sin by severity and harshness toward those whom God approves. {AA 504.1}


The last part of that quote is oh so true. What happens now when one speaks out against practices that God condemns? Such a one may likely be called uncaring, intolerant, judgmental etc etc.- as if rebuking is unloving.


one might take a look at the paragraph before the above EGW quotes:

Quote:
Fearing that Timothy’s mild, yielding disposition might lead him to shun an essential part of his work, Paul exhorted him to be faithful in reproving sin and even to rebuke with sharpness those who were guilty of gross evils. Yet he was to do this “with all long-suffering and doctrine.” He was to reveal the patience and love of Christ, explaining and enforcing his reproofs by the truths of the word.


refusing to participate in the dedication of a child to God simply because one does not accept the parents is hardly showing the patience and love of Christ...

this thread is reminding me more and more of the pharisee who prayed, "`O God! I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity -- greedy, dishonest, immoral..."
_________________________
Pam

Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup.

Mr. Watson, come here. I need marshmallows, chocolate and a heat source. - Alexander Graham Cracker

If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony.

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#688597 - 02/04/14 05:32 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: Green Cochoa]
Gregory Matthews Offline


Registered: 05/10/00
Posts: 9864
Loc: Colorado, USA
Green said:
Quote:
Keep in mind, folks, that there is no Biblical precedent for, nor requirement for a baby dedication.


Well, there may not be an explicit command to dedicate a child.

But, I consider the following to be a precedent: Mark 10:13-16 & Luke 18:15-17.


Read those Biblical passages and note what Christ did--he blessed the children. O.K. That may not be a dedication. But, it does tell us something.

I wonder about those mothers (probably women) who brought their children to Christ that day: Were any of the women prostitutes? If so, would Christ have refused to bless them due to the fact that some would say doing so gave an implicit blessing to prostitution? Did any of their fathers make their living by robbery?

I wonder if the mothers and fathers represented their that day had any imperfections in their lives? Again, one must be careful to not appear to show any positive attitude to something that was morally wrong?

Ellen White in commenting on this passages says:

Christ
Quote:
. . . still invites the mothers to lead up their little ones to be blessed by Him. See DA page 512




NOTE: I am not in any way attributing the thoughts to which I have responded above to Green. He simply stimulated my thinking, so I have responded such.
_________________________
Gregory

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#688611 - 02/04/14 10:05 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: jackson]
CoAspen Offline


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 7054
Loc: Colorado
I would suggest that you have blinders, looking for snippets of quotes and splashes of texts to support preconceived ideas, you are not alone.

However, I prefer to look at the life of Christ and His ministry.....not to condemn the world but to seek and save the lost. Blessing a child would not be a challenge for Christ. I do not remember Christ asking for parental credentials when he said to allow the children to come to him or separate out children when he talked about becoming like a child, or etc..etc.


'Christians' have more problem with finding 'good' than with 'wrong/evil/bad'...it seems to be the focus of a lot. Again, what did Christ say, something about 'love'...maybe check out all of those splashes of texts and snippets of quotes!


Edited by CoAspen (02/04/14 10:08 AM)
_________________________

"You don't want to know the Truth, you want to know the truth as you understand it."

God from 'Conversations with God'

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#688659 - 02/04/14 05:29 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: rudywoofs]
jackson Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 234
Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

one might take a look at the paragraph before the above EGW quotes:

Quote:
Fearing that Timothy’s mild, yielding disposition might lead him to shun an essential part of his work, Paul exhorted him to be faithful in reproving sin and even to rebuke with sharpness those who were guilty of gross evils. Yet he was to do this “with all long-suffering and doctrine.” He was to reveal the patience and love of Christ, explaining and enforcing his reproofs by the truths of the word.


refusing to participate in the dedication of a child to God simply because one does not accept the parents is hardly showing the patience and love of Christ...

this thread is reminding me more and more of the pharisee who prayed, "`O God! I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity -- greedy, dishonest, immoral..."


i don't understand your point by adding the paragraph above. It says nothing different from the quote I used, but rather adds to it..

Paul's admonition to Timothy is exactly the point that you seem to detest," be faithful in reproving sin and even to rebuke with sharpness those who were guilty of gross evils." Why must you think that rebuke for sins cannot be done in patience and love? Or more to the point, why do you think that one who rebukes sin cares less for the sinner's soul than you would like?

There is a lot more at stake here than a child dedication. The souls of two adults are in the balance and making them comfortable in their lifestyle is not loving them. In addition, your comment , "simply because of their lifestyle'' is a euphemism for "living in sin". Why this reluctance to call sin by its right name?

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
this thread is reminding me more and more of the pharisee who prayed, "`O God! I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity -- greedy, dishonest, immoral..."


Why do you have this judgmental attitude that a rebuke of sin must be coming from a holier than thou mindset?

It would be better if we all cared as much about the parents' souls as we do about the child's.

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#688666 - 02/04/14 07:09 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: jackson]
rudywoofs Online   durdurdur
exwitch, researcher, Dash's Mom


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 9350
Originally Posted By: jackson

i don't understand your point by adding the paragraph above. It says nothing different from the quote I used, but rather adds to it..

Paul's admonition to Timothy is exactly the point that you seem to detest," be faithful in reproving sin and even to rebuke with sharpness those who were guilty of gross evils." Why must you think that rebuke for sins cannot be done in patience and love? Or more to the point, why do you think that one who rebukes sin cares less for the sinner's soul than you would like?

There is a lot more at stake here than a child dedication. The souls of two adults are in the balance and making them comfortable in their lifestyle is not loving them. In addition, your comment , "simply because of their lifestyle'' is a euphemism for "living in sin". Why this reluctance to call sin by its right name?

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
this thread is reminding me more and more of the pharisee who prayed, "`O God! I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity -- greedy, dishonest, immoral..."


Why do you have this judgmental attitude that a rebuke of sin must be coming from a holier than thou mindset?

It would be better if we all cared as much about the parents' souls as we do about the child's.


lots of finger pointing in the above... "you," "you," "you," "you," "your," "you" ...

fascinating...
_________________________
Pam

Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup.

Mr. Watson, come here. I need marshmallows, chocolate and a heat source. - Alexander Graham Cracker

If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony.

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#688696 - 02/04/14 11:13 PM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: rudywoofs]
CoAspen Offline


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 7054
Loc: Colorado
It's called a failure to comprehend! Your remarks were right on. Fascinating the parallels with the ancient religious leaders of Christ day!
_________________________

"You don't want to know the Truth, you want to know the truth as you understand it."

God from 'Conversations with God'

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#688712 - 02/05/14 07:35 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: rudywoofs]
debbym Online   content


Registered: 02/20/12
Posts: 1712
Loc: washington state
Quote:
quote from Jackson

Paul's admonition to Timothy is exactly the point that you seem to detest," be faithful in reproving sin and even to rebuke with sharpness those who were guilty of gross evils." Why must you think that rebuke for sins cannot be done in patience and love? Or more to the point, why do you think that one who rebukes sin cares less for the sinner's soul than you would like?

There is a lot more at stake here than a child dedication. The souls of two adults are in the balance and making them comfortable in their lifestyle is not loving them. In addition, your comment , "simply because of their lifestyle'' is a euphemism for "living in sin". Why this reluctance to call sin by its right name?


i do not have the power to convict anyone of sin. i can frown on sin, and detest sin, and reject sin, but only the Holy Spirit has the power to convict the sinner and bring them power and hope at the same time. Should i frown at sinners because i don't like their sin? does it help me when others frown at me when i am in error? no it does not bring me to Jesus. that has never been my path to Jesus.

because we all live with a fallen nature, and we all need to consider ourselves lest we also are tempted. we all have our favorite sins. sin is no respecter of persons. selfishness, cherished feelings of self pity, or self interest looms in every heart in one form or another, and we all need to pure gentle voice of God to be able to be aware of it. someone pointing the finger at me will never bring me conviction of my sin in the presence of God.

In prison ministries, the lay ministers do not go there to point out sin, and to pronounce how evil the inmates actions have been or are. They lift up Jesus alone, they do not lift up the sins of others.

in church services we lift up Jesus and let the spirit convict of sin. people are left free to choose. and if someone chooses to live for themselves instead of for God, it is not my job to make them miserable, and accuse them. there is one who is the accuser and that is the enemy of everyone's soul.
_________________________

deb

Love awakens love

Let God be true and every man a liar.

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#688715 - 02/05/14 08:05 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: debbym]
Tom Wetmore Online   rolleye0009
Latitudinarian


Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 6922
Loc: Silver Spring, MD, USA
And EGW makes it abundantly clear that those that take it upon themselves to point the finger of accusation and focus on the errors and mistakes of others are in alliance with that one Accuser of the brethren. She also says that those that unwisely take it upon themselves to draw attention to the errors and faults of others will be charge by God with a greater sin than the one that made the mistakes that were the focus of the accuser. She says that such accusation and condemnation is viewed by heaven as condemnation of Christ.

We are to show love. And we need to remember on this point that love keeps no record of wrongs.
_________________________
"Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good."
"Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal."
"I love God only as much as the person I love the least."
*Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth.
(And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)

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#688725 - 02/05/14 08:59 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: debbym]
Gregory Matthews Offline


Registered: 05/10/00
Posts: 9864
Loc: Colorado, USA
debbym: Good post.
_________________________
Gregory

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#688726 - 02/05/14 09:19 AM Re: "Gay" baby blessing [Re: debbym]
lazarus Offline



Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 5183
Loc: Maryland USA
Originally Posted By: debbym

in church services we lift up Jesus and let the spirit convict of sin. people are left free to choose. and if someone chooses to live for themselves instead of for God, it is not my job to make them miserable, and accuse them. there is one who is the accuser and that is the enemy of everyone's soul.


Yes.
A church service is never the place to call out individuals. I have done many baby blessings with parents in various living arrangements. I actually announce that we welcome all children. We bless babies, toddlers and older. I say that we follow the pattern of Jesus in "suffering the little children". I agree that dedication is just as much about parents as the child. I have the hard conversation, the rebuking, teaching and encouragement privately a week or two before the church service. I have never been approach by a lesbian couple. I have colleages who have been approached and have made different decisions according to their conscience.
_________________________
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
Einstein

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