#78646 - 04/14/06 04:03 PM
Re: Why Creationism Is Wrong and Evolution is Right
[Re: Mandy]
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Husband and Father
Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 7070
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Just another brief response to Nico's 'where do we draw the line?' Can you think and talk a little bit about the alternative? That is, if we must retain and maintain every single 'pillar', because of 'slippery slope' arguments: if it's wrong to question *anything* we're told (by people, claiming to speak for God) because it will lead to questioning *everything*... then where does that approach leave us? I guess my point is that the world we live in is not simple and, like it or not, we have to draw the line somewhere. Bevin did a great job above of outlining where he draws it. I attempted something similar in my blog post today: http://bravus.port5.com/blog/?p=490Part of the argument all along has been that a particular belief about origins is not essential to salvation, or to Christian living, and does not underpin the entire Bible. I disagree that the Sabbath is meaningless if creation was not a literal 7 day week: God ordained the Sabbath as a memorial of His Creation of the world. Whatever mechanism He used, He's still the Creator and the Sabbath is still a memorial to that. By making these huge statements about 'well, if you do away with literal, recent, 7 day creationism, you do away with all our doctrines', what people are essentially doing is roping all the pillars together. Then when the workmen come in to remove a rotten pillar and replace it with a stronger one, they're in danger of toppling them all. That's artificial, dangerous and unnecessary.
_________________________
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate
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#78648 - 04/14/06 04:22 PM
Re: Why Creationism Is Wrong and Evolution is Right
[Re: ]
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Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 1186
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Nico--I understand so well. I was not (fortunately!) at an Adventist university when taking this class, but at a state university (which probably made it easier for me to find my way back). Not saying it doesn't happen, and I would have REALLY had my socks knocked off had it been at an SDA institution, but for me it was an good old UNC. Quote:
I'm just fed up of the cognitive dissonance. Either there is or there isn't. Quit the dancing around. Quit the double talk -- one thing to teach new converts in Daniel & Revelation seminars then another thing entirely to throw at them in college. They want their cake and eat it too, maybe? Want to be the ones who are wise AND lord it over the others by keeping them in ignorance, superstition and darkness? Or is all this scholarship just bunk in the end and we are better off being "simple" (meaning uncomplicated, not "stupid") people taking God at His word? Well which is it already??? Get on with it, draw the line where the line goes and best be ready with an absolutely air-tight and impeccable explanation WHY you are drawing it anywhere short of absolute gnosticism.
I've had many of the same questions. I don't know how I've settled it for myself except to study things out for myself and not to rely on what others say. Too many people get steered too far wrong (one side of the road or the other, doesn't really matter--if you're wrong, you're wrong--the devil doesn't care which side you went off on) by following what others say. We can't follow others. I made this statement once before on this board and someone asked if we could not use others' writings to help us to understand. In this day and age, I'd be so cautious about saying yes.
(lots more I could say and was going to say, but I just had an hour online conversation with my best friend in China, so it's late now!)
M
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#78649 - 04/14/06 04:25 PM
Re: Why Creationism Is Wrong and Evolution is Right
[Re: mausman]
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Administrator of Foro Adventista
Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 16950
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
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Quote:
I find Adventism is rigerous in its search for the truth like few other denominations are.
I would also like to add that I doubt groups of Baptists or groups of Lutherans, etc. would allow critics of their denomination to posts as freely as the Adventists that run this site allow here. That speaks volumes about the kind of people Adventists are.
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#78650 - 04/14/06 10:26 PM
Re: Why Creationism Is Wrong and Evolution is Right
[Re: mausman]
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Here Forever, by Request :)
Registered: 07/30/01
Posts: 18428
Loc: Out standing in a field
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*tacking on Quote:
and... "Antiochus Epiphanes is a pipsqueak." Dr. Leslie Harding.
Is this where the addage "I had an Epiphany" comes from?
_________________________
"Earth - insane asylum for the universe." - Maxine " Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him..."1 John 2:15-16
 Fairview Or
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#78651 - 04/14/06 10:52 PM
Re: Why Creationism Is Wrong and Evolution is Right
[Re: ]
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Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 3146
Loc: Ohio
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#78652 - 04/14/06 10:55 PM
Re: Why Creationism Is Wrong and Evolution is Right
[Re: ]
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Carpe Diem!!!
Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: 49.05° Lat- 122.3° Long
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olger For a good time click here http://www.adventistenforum.com/Our sister (and lonely) forum
_________________________
Jeremiah 9:23 This is what the LORD says:
"Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches,
but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me,
that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD .
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#78653 - 04/15/06 03:37 AM
Re: Why Creationism Is Wrong and Evolution is Right
[Re: Billy Dennis]
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Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 7422
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
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Quote:
Part of the argument all along has been that a particular belief about origins is not essential to salvation, or to Christian living, and does not underpin the entire Bible.
Anyone who thinks that a particular belief about origins is not essential to salvation is only deluding him/herself. As I already pointed out, there is no room for right and wrong, sin and righteousness, no room for a Savior in evolution. No moral imperatives where might makes right, where the biggest fang and the sharpest claw rules.
Quote:
I disagree that the Sabbath is meaningless if creation was not a literal 7 day week: God ordained the Sabbath as a memorial of His Creation of the world. Whatever mechanism He used, He's still the Creator and the Sabbath is still a memorial to that.
Well, let's think this through. What kind of a God would create a world ruled by might, the fang and the claw? Where can you find a God of love in evolution? Where can you find room for an Omnipotent, Omniscient God in evolution that claims that what you see appeared by and through chance?
Quote:
By making these huge statements about 'well, if you do away with literal, recent, 7 day creationism, you do away with all our doctrines', what people are essentially doing is roping all the pillars together. Then when the workmen come in to remove a rotten pillar and replace it with a stronger one, they're in danger of toppling them all. That's artificial, dangerous and unnecessary.
I don't think you realize how tenuously thin the ice one is standing on once one accepts evolution as fact. Evolution trivializes God, sin, atonement, incarnation, resurrection, any important religious belief you might have. Just pick out any important religious belief you might hold and let's see how well it stands up on the foundation of evolution.
Gerry
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#78654 - 04/15/06 04:58 AM
Re: Why Creationism Is Wrong and Evolution is Right
[Re: Billy Dennis]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15396
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Quote:
Bravus said: Whatever mechanism He used, He's still the Creator and the Sabbath is still a memorial to that.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them Man in the day when they were created. 3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.
Clearly Adam did not evolve. According to the above Adam had a son 130 years after he was created.
Rob
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#78655 - 04/15/06 05:34 AM
Re: Why Creationism Is Wrong and Evolution is Right
[Re: TheLittleGiraffe]
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Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Colorado
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Bravus: Quote:
I disagree that the Sabbath is meaningless if creation was not a literal 7 day week: God ordained the Sabbath as a memorial of His Creation of the world. Whatever mechanism He used, He's still the Creator and the Sabbath is still a memorial to that.
Gary C: Well, let's think this through. What kind of a God would create a world ruled by might, the fang and the claw? Where can you find a God of love in evolution? Where can you find room for an Omnipotent, Omniscient God in evolution that claims that what you see appeared by and through chance?
Now that is what I would call a 'no answer, change the subject question, none applicable statement,' by Gary.
Bravus states a belief; "I disagree that the Sabbath is meaningless if creation was not a literal 7 day week". That is his opinion, agree or disagree. Nothing in Gary's post addresses that.
Bravus; " God ordained the Sabbath as a memorial of His Creation of the world." A statement, is it correct or wrong?
Well, the Genisis story proclaims just that. Again, does Gary reply to that? NO.
Bravus;"Whatever mechanism He used, He's still the Creator and the Sabbath is still a memorial to that." Another statement, true or untrue? No answer to that one either. The word 'whatever' is opened ended, but is that entirely wrong? Do we understand the exact science/method that God used in creation? Other than the phrase 'God spoke' we are told nothing.
Gary; "Well, let's think this through." A great start, but happens next?
Gary; " What kind of a God would create a world ruled by might, the fang and the claw? " Did Bravus mention any of that in his quoted post?
Gary; " Where can you find a God of love in evolution?" A question in regards to what part of quote?
Gary; "Where can you find room for an Omnipotent, Omniscient God in evolution that claims that what you see appeared by and through chance?" Another question in regards to what? Not the quote!
If we are going to defend our SDA position of '7 literal days' of creation, then lets be more 'on point' and not just through 'stuff' against the wall and hope it sticks!
Sheesh! 
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