#80792 - 04/30/06 05:10 PM
Re: Orgins > Sin & Death
[Re: mausman]
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Craftsman
Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
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Shane, is this thread in the right forum? Would seem more apropriate for the 'theology' forum. I understand this forum to focus on scientific issues in regard to origins.
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#80795 - 05/01/06 06:51 AM
Re: Orgins > Sin & Death
[Re: mausman]
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Craftsman
Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
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Honestly, Shane, after reading your three posts, it sounds like this thread belongs in the 'Bible and Theology' forum rather than Origins. I would hope that the Origins threads may be serious, solid, in-depth scientific discussions. We gotta have something like that here. Otherwise, the ol' brain may atrify!
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#80797 - 05/01/06 09:25 PM
Re: Orgins > Sin & Death
[Re: mausman]
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Husband and Father
Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 6087
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Putting on my moderator hat for just a second, I don't think this thread falls outside the scope of the Origins forum. The only reason it might be better off elsewhere is to find a broader readership/broader participation, but Shane has put it where he wants it and that's fair enough.
_________________________
If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve
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#80799 - 05/01/06 10:42 PM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: mausman]
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Husband and Father
Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 6087
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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Perhaps salvation and eternal life require consciousness (this actually gets back to the old 'will my dog be in heaven?' discussion). In that case, we could assume that animals and pre-humans who died died forever - it is only humans who have (or, a better way to say it from an Adventist perspective) are souls, and therefore the potential for salvation or damnation. So the Genesis account becomes the story of the rise of the ability to choose good or evil, symbolised by the tree, and the story of the first humans' choice and its consequences.
This is a speculative approach, not something I'm saying I believe, but it is one way of thinking about the origin of sin and death within a theistic evolutionary framework. That is, the death that sin introduced was separation from God and the loss of the promise of translation, transformation and immortality that God offered the first humans.
_________________________
If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve
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#80800 - 05/02/06 12:22 AM
Re: Orgins > Sin & Death
[Re: mausman]
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Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
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Quote:
Did sin cause death?
Like most of the questions in this general area, this question needs a better definition.
As I asked, in another topic
1) Can non-animate objects sin?
2) Can animals sin?
Now we have to ask another question.
What is death? For example,
1) can a virus die?
2) can an individual cell die?
3) can a leaf die?
4) can a bacteria?
5) can a colony of bacteria?
6) can a fungus?
7) can an ant?
/Bevin
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#80801 - 05/02/06 02:58 AM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: ]
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Administrator of Foro Adventista
Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 15482
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
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So in the theistic evolutionary belief (that God used millions of years to create the universe) death occured in animals, plants, fungi, etc. before man came along. The "soul" did not exist until man was created. Death came to man when he seperated himself from God through sin.
So wouldn't it follow that after the world is destroyed and recreated, it will be as it was before man fell into sin? There will continue to be death among the plants, animals, fungi, etc?
The whole scenario is far outside of what Scripture says.
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox." Isaiah 11:6,7
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Rev. 21:4
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#80802 - 05/23/06 08:51 AM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: mausman]
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Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Washington, USA
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Quote:
"So wouldn't it follow that after the world is destroyed and recreated, it will be as it was before man fell into sin? There will continue to be death among the plants, animals, fungi, etc?"
If man eat fruits and plants and lion shall eat straw like the ox in the new earth, wouldn't there be death to the plants and the grass?
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#80804 - 05/23/06 08:50 PM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: mausman]
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Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 165
Loc: Huntsville, AL
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sin did not cause death.... think about it...the tree of life was in the garden.... had sinless Adam and Eve stopped eating from that tree what would have happened?
_________________________
"Change takes but an instant. It's the resistance to change that can take a lifetime."
- Hebrew Proverb
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#80808 - 05/23/06 10:38 PM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: ]
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Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Washington, USA
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So it is not sin that cause death, but the depriving of eating from the tree of life is the cause of death.
When God said "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Gen 2:17. Does this verse imply that God punish the human race to death by not allowing him to eat from the tree of life.
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#80809 - 05/23/06 10:59 PM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: ]
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Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 165
Loc: Huntsville, AL
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Quote:
So it is not sin that cause death, but the depriving of eating from the tree of life is the cause of death.
When God said "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Gen 2:17. Does this verse imply that God punish the human race to death by not allowing him to eat from the tree of life.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Seems that the Creator did not want them to have unlimited access to the Tree of Life...
_________________________
"Change takes but an instant. It's the resistance to change that can take a lifetime."
- Hebrew Proverb
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#80811 - 05/24/06 12:20 AM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: ]
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Husband and Father
Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 6087
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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That's *really* interesting, claborn. Death came to all through sin, but the *mechanism* was exclusion from the tree of life (a consequence of sin), rather than some organic change in their bodies. That presumably would mean species other than humans were already dying before the Fall... and that humans were themselves mortal, not immortal. The perspective seems consistent, and explains some things we've been having trouble with in this discussion. Shane, doesn't the above way of outlining what happened fit with that Romans text too?
_________________________
If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve
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#80813 - 05/26/06 05:21 PM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: mausman]
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Husband and Father
Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 6087
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
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I guess the only response to that that makes sense is that the New Earth is not a return to Eden but something even better... either that or (being a little less literal) the author of that paragraph was being symbolic about human peacefulness (i.e. the lion represents rapacious humans who will 'eat grass' instead of preying on others).
I guess the whole idea of a lion eating grass is kinda weird to me anyway. Everything about a lion is so well adapted for hunting and eating meat, from its teeth to its digestive system to the social arrangements within a pride. Give a lion the requisite 4 stomachs that a cow needs to get decent nutrition from grass, and the kind of teeth that is needed to be able to crop decent quantities of grass... and what you have is a cow with a mane.
_________________________
If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve
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#80815 - 05/27/06 12:04 AM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: mausman]
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Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Washington, USA
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Quote:
" If animals died before the fall, wouldn't it reason that animals ate animals? "
Not necessary so, animals could die of old ages because they were commanded to eat grass and not eating from the tree of life. The reason why animals ate animals was they were cursed by God for man's sake. Man was God's crowning creation. Man was created in God's own likeness. Man was a living soul, with the ability to choose, think, create, reason, remember and response while animals were merely living bodies and act on instinct.
Man was suppose to take care the earth and its inhabitants and enviroments. Since man rebelled against God, God cursed the animals to rebel and enviroments to change for man's sake so that man could realise his mistakes and come back to God through the provision of Christ redemption for mankind. There is no such provision for animals to be redeemed from sin and death. Hence "there is no more death" only apply to man and not to animals in the new earth. In the new earth, God will remove His curse on animals so that they will not eat each other but if they are not given the tree of life to eat, they will still die of old age.
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#80817 - 05/30/06 02:48 PM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 1231
Loc: NSW Australia
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Quote:
In the new earth, God will remove His curse on animals so that they will not eat each other but if they are not given the tree of life to eat, they will still die of old age.
I had a lovely cat (named Maxine, not that it matters) and she lived with me for about fifteen years. At the end of that time she was almost blind and was arthritic in her joints and could not move as easily as she once could. One morning she was in the front yard of our house when a large black dog attacked her. She was not killed outright but the vet told us that she would probably never fully recover so we had her put down.
Now I know I am a wimp but I shed quite a few tears on that day. I had been very close to that animal and it hurt a lot to loose her.
When God said there would be no more tears in heaven/New Earth, I guess that means He will not allow us to form close relationships with any sort of animal there. If we live infinitely, then no matter how long an animal's life span is we will suffer a parting such as I have described an infinite number of times. And if animals die of old age then that must mean that we will slowly watch them get old and feeble, find it hard to get about, maybe get blind, arthritic, have their vital organs misfunction, until their wornout old bodies give up the struggle. Then we can watch it all over again with another animal companion.
I'm certainly glad that God will have removed my tear ducts in my glorified body because that is the only way I will have no tears at such a time.
Graeme
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#80818 - 05/30/06 11:44 PM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: Pastor John]
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Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 2869
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Bravus said: Quote:
That's *really* interesting, claborn. Death came to all through sin, but the *mechanism* was exclusion from the tree of life (a consequence of sin), rather than some organic change in their bodies. That presumably would mean species other than humans were already dying before the Fall... and that humans were themselves mortal, not immortal.
Puhleeeeze.
The real sin, and therefore the cause of death, was that Adam and Eve ceased to trust God. When the serpent hinted that God was lying, they could choose to trust the serpent or trust God. They trusted the serpent.
So long as they relied on God, they had access to divine power. After all, if the tree of life had magical power to sustain life, that power came from God. For those who want to find the seven literal days symbols of eons, it's a little strange to take the magical fruit of the tree of life that literally!
Sure there was a literal tree, and sure they ate from it. But the whole point of eating from the other tree is changing loyalty. Egads! Immortality isn't about diet! Either for humans or for animals.
Man had dominion over the Earth. This was not merely sybolic, it was metaphysical. And when man rebelled against God, the Earth rebelled against man. That's the signficance of the thorns!!! The Earth no longer cooperated with man's efforts.
All nature, which had been designed to live in harmony-- you know, the Lion lying down with the lamb and all--now was in a turmoil. Sin changed the inherent nature of plants and animals, too.
Cooperation was replaced with competition. Disease and genetic mutation (mostly debilitating) afflicted animal and plant populations. God introduced predation as a blessing, to control disease and genetic deformity in both prey and predator.
Around where I live, we have many deer, for example, but gew natural predators. That doesn't mean the deer thrive. Oh, their populations increase, but disease and, in bad winters, starvation take a terrible toll.
As sin increased, so did the rebellion of nature, as symbolized by the ultimate rebellion, the universal flood. Once evil became so pervasive, only a pervasive flood could ameliorate its effects.
After the flood the alienation of man and nature intensified.
REmember, that Eve's fertility was to be increased after the fall, because of sin.
If every child survives, then each couple needs only a few to populate the earth over time.
It's reasonable to infer that animal fertility also increased, because now there would be disease and predation to control population growth.
So no, it's simply not necessary for animals to have died before sin. Nor is it necessary in the New Earth.
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#80819 - 06/10/06 04:06 AM
Re: Origins > Sin & Death
[Re: mausman]
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Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 585
Loc: Belleville,Ont,Canada
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Quote:
If lions before the fall ate grass, they certainy were not the same type of lion we have today. So the question becomes, could have a grass-eating lion evolved into a meat eating lion and still resemble the same animal? Or did God create two different types of lions - one before the fall and one after?
I'm surprised noone has brought out the fact that humans were vegetarians at creation but many became carnivors after the flood. There didn't have to be a special creation for that to happen.
We have seen so many ways in which created things have adjusted to environment and necessity in diet and other ways as well. 
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