That's *really* interesting, claborn. Death came to all through sin, but the *mechanism* was exclusion from the tree of life (a consequence of sin), rather than some organic change in their bodies. That presumably would mean species other than humans were already dying before the Fall... and that humans were themselves mortal, not immortal. The perspective seems consistent, and explains some things we've been having trouble with in this discussion. Shane, doesn't the above way of outlining what happened fit with that Romans text too?

It is plausible. So now explain why lions will eat straw. If animals died before the fall, wouldn't it reason that animals ate animals? If so, why won't they continue to eat animals in heaven and the new earth.

I guess the only response to that that makes sense is that the New Earth is not a return to Eden but something even better... either that or (being a little less literal) the author of that paragraph was being symbolic about human peacefulness (i.e. the lion represents rapacious humans who will 'eat grass' instead of preying on others).

I guess the whole idea of a lion eating grass is kinda weird to me anyway. Everything about a lion is so well adapted for hunting and eating meat, from its teeth to its digestive system to the social arrangements within a pride. Give a lion the requisite 4 stomachs that a cow needs to get decent nutrition from grass, and the kind of teeth that is needed to be able to crop decent quantities of grass... and what you have is a cow with a mane.

It makes one consider the idea of a second creation after the fall. Some have suggested this happened after the flood. If lions before the fall ate grass, they certainy were not the same type of lion we have today. So the question becomes, could have a grass-eating lion evolved into a meat eating lion and still resemble the same animal? Or did God create two different types of lions - one before the fall and one after?

Quote:
" If animals died before the fall, wouldn't it reason that animals ate animals? "

Not necessary so, animals could die of old ages because they were commanded to eat grass and not eating from the tree of life. The reason why animals ate animals was they were cursed by God for man's sake. Man was God's crowning creation. Man was created in God's own likeness. Man was a living soul, with the ability to choose, think, create, reason, remember and response while animals were merely living bodies and act on instinct.

Man was suppose to take care the earth and its inhabitants and enviroments. Since man rebelled against God, God cursed the animals to rebel and enviroments to change for man's sake so that man could realise his mistakes and come back to God through the provision of Christ redemption for mankind. There is no such provision for animals to be redeemed from sin and death. Hence "there is no more death" only apply to man and not to animals in the new earth. In the new earth, God will remove His curse on animals so that they will not eat each other but if they are not given the tree of life to eat, they will still die of old age.

That all may be true but I think there are a lot of assumptions being made there.

Bravus said:

Quote:

---

That's *really* interesting, claborn. Death came to all through sin, but the *mechanism* was exclusion from the tree of life (a consequence of sin), rather than some organic change in their bodies. That presumably would mean species other than humans were already dying before the Fall... and that humans were themselves mortal, not immortal.

---

Puhleeeeze.

The real sin, and therefore the cause of death, was that Adam and Eve ceased to trust God. When the serpent hinted that God was lying, they could choose to trust the serpent or trust God. They trusted the serpent.

So long as they relied on God, they had access to divine power. After all, if the tree of life had magical power to sustain life, that power came from God. For those who want to find the seven literal days symbols of eons, it's a little strange to take the magical fruit of the tree of life that literally!

Sure there was a literal tree, and sure they ate from it. But the whole point of eating from the other tree is changing loyalty. Egads! Immortality isn't about diet! Either for humans or for animals.

Man had dominion over the Earth. This was not merely sybolic, it was metaphysical. And when man rebelled against God, the Earth rebelled against man. That's the signficance of the thorns!!! The Earth no longer cooperated with man's efforts.

All nature, which had been designed to live in harmony-- you know, the Lion lying down with the lamb and all--now was in a turmoil. Sin changed the inherent nature of plants and animals, too.

Cooperation was replaced with competition. Disease and genetic mutation (mostly debilitating) afflicted animal and plant populations. God introduced predation as a blessing, to control disease and genetic deformity in both prey and predator.

Around where I live, we have many deer, for example, but gew natural predators. That doesn't mean the deer thrive. Oh, their populations increase, but disease and, in bad winters, starvation take a terrible toll.

As sin increased, so did the rebellion of nature, as symbolized by the ultimate rebellion, the universal flood. Once evil became so pervasive, only a pervasive flood could ameliorate its effects.

After the flood the alienation of man and nature intensified.

REmember, that Eve's fertility was to be increased after the fall, because of sin.

If every child survives, then each couple needs only a few to populate the earth over time.

It's reasonable to infer that animal fertility also increased, because now there would be disease and predation to control population growth.

So no, it's simply not necessary for animals to have died before sin. Nor is it necessary in the New Earth.

Quote:

---

If lions before the fall ate grass, they certainy were not the same type of lion we have today. So the question becomes, could have a grass-eating lion evolved into a meat eating lion and still resemble the same animal? Or did God create two different types of lions - one before the fall and one after?

---

I'm surprised noone has brought out the fact that humans were vegetarians at creation but many became carnivors after the flood. There didn't have to be a special creation for that to happen.

We have seen so many ways in which created things have adjusted to environment and necessity in diet and other ways as well.