#8967 - 05/12/06 08:02 AM
Re: 22. Jehovah's Witnesses derived from Adventism;
[Re: Halfstep Denise]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10453
Loc: CA
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As an SDA and student of JW doctrines, I have found a number of very interesting similarities between the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists. The most recent similarity I've discovered is that on pages 294 to 306 of one of their books, entitled Creation, published 1927, they taught that the "time, times, and half a time" of Daniel 7:25 is 1260 years. They believed that the time period began with the overthrow of the Ostrogothic monarchy, which allowed the Bishop of Rome to rule in the Western Roman Empire. Also like the Seventh-day Adventists, this book teaches that the "time of the end" began at the end of the 1,260 years.
They believed, however, that it began in 539 and ended in 1799.
That is quite different from what they teach today about that time period. Their book, Daniel's Prophecy (1999), pages 142 to 144, says that the time period was 1260 literal days, which began in December 1914 and ended in June 1918.
Almost no Jehovah's Witness today is aware of this change in their interpretation of Daniel 7:25.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#8968 - 05/17/06 09:29 AM
Re: 22. Jehovah's Witnesses derived from Adventism;
[Re: ]
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Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 673
Loc: New York
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Although the rise of fundamentalism also throws a monkeywrench into the situation, prior to the rise of Darbyism and it's promotion in the Scholfield reference Bible, Seventh-day Adventism had much in common with other religions. In addition durring the 1800s Protestantism was generally re-examining beliefs instead of taking them for granted and would question things such as the Trinity, but as they studied they tended to return to it.
The Jehovah's witness came from the same 1800 world, and instead of either staying strictly historisists as we basically did, or completely giving up historisism for Darbyism as others did, they formed a mix of the two, and with some issues such as the Trinity, they tend to continue to ask the old questions that Protestants were tending to ask in the 1800s but not dealing with the answers that developed.
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#8969 - 05/18/06 04:14 PM
Re: 22. Jehovah's Witnesses derived from Adventism;
[Re: ]
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Registered: 05/10/00
Posts: 7113
Loc: Colorado, USA
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Two points:
There is much in what U. Smith taught regarding the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation that was taught by other Bible students in his time. A comparison of his writings with that of these other authors suggests that some of what he taught came from them. Of course, that it not true for all. Some of what he taught was unique, and new.
JWs in thier origin did have some exposure to early Adventists. But, it cannot be seriously said that they are a spin-off of the SDA Chruch. The same is true for H.W. Armstrong, his group, and its spin-offs. But, the JWs are more distant from us than is Armstrong's followers.
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Gregory
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#8970 - 06/30/06 11:52 PM
Re: 22. Jehovah's Witnesses derived from Adventism;
[Re: RosebudB]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10453
Loc: CA
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Quote:
Gregory Matthews said:
Two points:
There is much in what U. Smith taught regarding the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation that was taught by other Bible students in his time. A comparison of his writings with that of these other authors suggests that some of what he taught came from them. Of course, that it not true for all. Some of what he taught was unique, and new.
JWs in thier origin did have some exposure to early Adventists. But, it cannot be seriously said that they are a spin-off of the SDA Chruch. The same is true for H.W. Armstrong, his group, and its spin-offs. But, the JWs are more distant from us than is Armstrong's followers.
I recently attended meetings in Long Beach along with about seven thousand Jehovah Witnesses and stayed with a Jehovah Witness family for four days. I've been doing an intense study of their beliefs for the past six months just in order to understand what they believe and why they believe it.
It is impossible to do much good for them until you have first broken their confidence in the Watchtower society. Otherwise, no matter what you show them from the Bible, they will ALWAYS accept the interpertation of the "faithful and discreet slave," i.e., those among the 144,000 who are yet on the earth and who are in charge of the publications and direction of the organization. When members have this faith in the Watchtower society in New York, they believe they are right even if you prove from the Bible that they are wrong. That is the bottom line.
For instance, you could show them 50 translations that disagree with their New World Translation. You could even show them from the original Greek. You could show them first editions of their NWT that disagree with their current edition. You could show them old publications that disagree with the current Watchtower magazine. You could show them proof that all historical sources, such as Bible dictionaries and Bible commentators, disagree with them in regard to important historical dates. They might even acknowledge that everything you show them is true. None of this, however, would be of any importance to them because they do not reason the same as others about these matters. They would tell you that those non-Jehovah Witness writers and translators are being used by the Devil to deceive and that only their organization, i.e., the "faithful and discreet slave" directing things from New York, is God's true channel of Truth. They will tell you this is where you must have faith. Not faith in the Bible or in Jehovah but faith in the "faithful and discreet slave," which they believe is described in Matthew 24:45.
A long time ago the Jehovah Witnesses had more in common with SDAs, especially in terms of prophetic understanding. Even today they believe in the 70 week prophecy like SDAs, except that they begin dating from the year 455 instead of 457, and they believe the period ends in 36 instead of 34. Does 2 years make a difference? You better believe it does. It might as well as be 1000 years. Why? Because the Watchtower society says it does, and if you try to reason about the difference, be prepared for no one to listen to you.
The "friend" that I had been studying with for six months stopped suddenly the other day when I told him that I believed the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is God, not a god. He wasn't prepared to look at the evidence from the Bible, not even from the NWT.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#8971 - 07/01/06 01:12 AM
Re: 22. Jehovah's Witnesses derived from Adventism;
[Re: ted]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10453
Loc: CA
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Quote:
Kevin H said:
Although the rise of fundamentalism also throws a monkeywrench into the situation, prior to the rise of Darbyism and it's promotion in the Scholfield reference Bible, Seventh-day Adventism had much in common with other religions. In addition durring the 1800s Protestantism was generally re-examining beliefs instead of taking them for granted and would question things such as the Trinity, but as they studied they tended to return to it.
The Jehovah's witness came from the same 1800 world, and instead of either staying strictly historisists as we basically did, or completely giving up historisism for Darbyism as others did, they formed a mix of the two, and with some issues such as the Trinity, they tend to continue to ask the old questions that Protestants were tending to ask in the 1800s but not dealing with the answers that developed.
I believe that the book Great Controversy shows why SDAs had so much in common with the other Protestants during the 1800s. God was leading the Protestant reformers in their prophetic understanding, in their views of justification and in the necessity of relying on the Bible alone for faith and practice. Therefore they generally agreed on these subjects. But whereas Adventists admired the early Protestant leaders and beleived the Protestant movement as a whole was of God, Jehovah's Witnesses don't admire them at all, and in fact, consider both Protestant and Catholic groups alike as instruments of the Devil.
Jehovah's Witnesses are in such strong opposition to the Trinity because they are convinced it originated with paganism, the same as Adventists view Sunday. The difference is that I will gladly study Bible subjects with those who disagree with me, but Jehovah's Witnesses rarely will allow anyone to present views different from their own because they think that such views come from Satan, and they are taught that even listening to those views is dangerous. Their leaders control them through fear and intimidation and that is why as a group they have never dealt with the answers that developed during the 1800s.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#8973 - 07/01/06 07:48 PM
Re: 22. Jehovah's Witnesses derived from Adventism;
[Re: ]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10453
Loc: CA
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Quote:
olger said:
Thanks for your insights, John. What I am hearing is that the watchtower is the JW magisterium instead of the Spirit of God. This parallels the Roman system doesn't it?
friend gerry
Yes, very much so. Their version of the Papacy is the "faithful and discreet slave" as well as the "domestics" of Matthew 24:45. (They believe the "domestics" are members of the 144,000-- having a heavenly hope, not an earthly-- who are scattered all over the world and are not located at the headquarters in New York.) In fact, this "slave" has a greater influence on Jehovah's Witnesses than the Pope has on Catholics, because while there are Catholics who do not listen to the Pope, you will not find a single Jehovah's Witness who will not listen to the "slave." As soon as he does not listen to the slave, he is disfellowshipped.
Of course, Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the Spirit of God, but in God's spirit-- that is, an impersonal force, or influence, or power. You really don't see any evidence of the Holy Spirit among Jehovah's Witnesses. Even their "preaching" is almost always a talk that is read to the audience, and all questions and answers are merely read from their publications. I was told that I really should not ask questions that are not part of the written program. I could ask questions but those had to be asked privately, and not take up too much of the "overseer's" time.
They are extremely well organized and dedicated. All labor is done freely. They often construct their buidlings in one or two days, all with volunteer labor. The organization owns land where they grow their own fruit and vegetables and where they have their own farms and factories. The workers are paid a minimum wage and many remain there all of their lives.
We could learn a lot from them in terms of unity and dedication. You don't hear them disagreeing among themselves over matters of doctrine and interpretation. But I don't believe their unity is a unity in the Holy Spirit but is from man. That is my opinion based on my experience with them.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#8974 - 07/08/06 09:13 PM
Re: 22. Jehovah's Witnesses derived from Adventism;
[Re: ]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10453
Loc: CA
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Quote:
olger said:
Thanks for your insights, John. What I am hearing is that the watchtower is the JW magisterium instead of the Spirit of God. This parallels the Roman system doesn't it?
friend gerry
An update on Jehovah's Witnesses.
The Jehovah's Witness man I have been studying with for over six months told me recently he wants to keep studying after all, but he wants to concentrate on the Trinity. He changed his mind because the overseer in his local congregation "gave him a good lecture" for "getting rid" of me because I disagreed with him about the Trinity. He suprised me twice in the last week by saying that if I am right in what I say, he won't have an "organization." The last time we talked, he also told me that if I prove from the Bible that Jesus is God, he won't be able to continue to study or be friends because "it would mean the Watchtower is wrong and then where would that leave me? Without an organization or anything." He appealed to me to have faith in the Watchtower publications because, he said, "they will lead you to gain eternal life, even if they are wrong on some things."
Please pray for me and for him as I study with this man. Pray that God will show me the right texts to talk with him about and that God will give him courage and faith to accept what the Bible teaches.
I have not yet told him I am an SDA and he has not asked me. The reason I have not told him is that I know if I had told him earlier that I am SDA, he would not have studied the Bible with me. He has already begun to see that the New World Translation is unrealiable, but he just has not been able to see his way to placing his faith in God and in the Bible instead of in the "faithful and discreet slave" in New York. Like most Jehovah's Witness, he is intimidated by the thought of being outside the organization, the Watchtower society.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#8975 - 07/08/06 09:59 PM
Re: 22. Jehovah's Witnesses derived from Adventism
[Re: ]
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Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 238
Loc: langley, bc, canada
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As a former JW, I pray for you. It's hard to break down any of their walls.
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All I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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