Cliff is on Hope Television and it stars...





You guessed it...






Clifford Goldstien

It is on Tuesday mornings at 4:00am PT/7:00am ET; Wednesday 3:30pm PT/6:30pm ET; Thursday 9:30pm PT/Friday 12:30am ET; Sabbath 7:00pm PT/10:00pm ET

Cliff not only challenges the secular mind, he makes the converted mind think real hard too. This is not a program for the intellecually lazy. This is not just chewing gum for the mind. This is a program for thinking people.

The set and presentation could perhaps use a little fine tuning but out of 5 stars, I give it 4 1/2.

yeah this is most interesting.... seen it....

Yes my wife and I love the Cliff show as well.

This evening he talked about how an individual's ability to experience pain is limited to the individual. That is, there is nor corporate pain that is experience spills over from an individual. When a group of people experience pain, it is really a group of individuals all experiencing individual pain. It is not like one person experiencing the pain of an entire group.

The exception to this was Christ. When the sins of the world were laid upon Christ He experienced more than just one individual's pain.

On another note, Cliff pointed out that the greatest commandment "to love the Lord you God with all your heart" is the only one God cannot force. God cannot force us to love Him. That would be like God making a square into a circle. It would defy logic. Love, in order to be love, must result from a being with free will. Thus while we are commanded to love God, we are not forced to do so.

God can force us not to covet?

Did Cliff provide a single text to show Jesus felt the pain of all individuals? As an EMT, I can tell you that pain reaches a limit - and people, normal every-day people, hit that limit.

/Bevin

Coveting can only be committed with by a being with free will. God could control our every thought and not allow anyone to covet, of course. But He cannot force us to love Him because if it does not come from free will, it isn't really love.

Cliff's intellectual stimulation often seems like it is directed toward nonbelievers so I think that is one of the reasons he doesn't quote a lot from the Bible in his presentations. The Bible only has value to believers so he appeals to the intellect without relying so much on it.

I would think the idea that Christ could have suffered more than any other individual is able to would have to be linked to Christ's divine nature. Christ was fully God and fully man. As such His ability to experience the punishment for every person's sin difficult to comprehend.

It is a great show and sometimes it is hard to wrap your mind around it. Cliff is definitely an asset to our denomination and the Hope Channel.

I don't know whether Clifford appeals to non-SDA. I do know that many of his arguments seem fundamentally flawed to a college-educated SDA friend and to myself.

This one is an instance of that. It is not at all obvious to me why a supreme brain-creating God can not wire in love - after all, it is just a matter of correct chemistry and wiring.

The argument that "He is God therefore He can feel more pain" is no more valid than one that says "He is God therefore He can tolerate more pain" - and has no useful consequences.

/Bevin

well, like I said, it is hard for some people to be able to grasp some of his intellectual stimulation. He is obviously a great asset to the church. Of course no one person is going to be liked by everyone.

Oh, his writing stimulates me all right...

/Bevin

Hi Bev. God did "wire in love." And He adroitly wired it parallel to our power of choice. Else it would not be real love.

a peaceful week,

olger